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Post by papiliotheona on Oct 9, 2013 8:46:12 GMT -8
Who of you has experience collecting or buying/trading for, legally, the northern Latin American citrus swallowtails such as Papilio/Heraclides ornythion, astyalus, and thoas? I'd like to find a legal source for all three. This is a beautiful subgenus and it's too bad that cresphontes will be the only representation of it for 99% of us. :-(
Ornythion ranges from southern Texas (a stray and sporadic breeder, not a reliable and consistent resident) down to Guatemala or Honduras, depending on what source you believe. It is most common in east-central Mexico, more sporadic down south. There used to be a famous lime tree in northern Belize that had larvae of it (and astyalus) in numbers, but this was nearly 100 years ago. Astyalus is also a stray to south TX, but gets much further south than ornythion. It has many subspecies. Thoas is found throughout the entire Neotropics, in many different ssp. I'm interested in all of them but I'd like to have something resembling the Mexican ssp. of it.
We all know the deal with Mexico. It's either completely impossible or very nearly so (depending on who you believe) to get a valid collecting/export permit for Mexico. Therefore some of the Mexico-only subspecies of the above insects, like astyalus bajaensis (very narrow bands, looking almost exactly like ornythion) are off-limits to everybody, but there are others like a. pallas, etc., that have broader ranges and should have somewhere where they can be lawfully obtained. It's easier to get permits for Belize, Guatemala, etc.
Thanks in advance for your help...
Papiliotheona
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Post by papiliotheona on Oct 9, 2013 8:11:50 GMT -8
Adam, what was the driving force behind this stupid protected list to begin with? Was it pressure from Western do-gooders or something else?
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Post by papiliotheona on Oct 9, 2013 8:09:37 GMT -8
Charlie22 is the Forest Service. The Humboldt-Toiyabe NF and FWS reached a sweetheart deal this summer regarding the listing of charlestonensis.
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Post by papiliotheona on Sept 15, 2013 16:18:49 GMT -8
If collectors were a serious economic interest, this crap wouldn't happen.
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Post by papiliotheona on Sept 15, 2013 16:17:42 GMT -8
Bruce Boyd of Las Vegas, NV is behind this bull****.
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Post by papiliotheona on Sept 15, 2013 16:15:12 GMT -8
It comes down to money, money, money. The USDA doesn't want to see economic harm from gypsy moth feeding (i.e. reduced yields of nut crops , less money in Forest Service coffers because people don't want to pay to camp where trees have been defoliated, etc.), so all is fair game for them. We can't move something across state lines, but they can turn loose a bunch of parasitoids from China and PNG and we are supposed to think that's swell.
Frankly I don't think L. dispar has been anywhere near as disastrous as the establishment line states. Tens of thousands of square miles of untouched old-growth forest is a food bonanza just waiting to be exploited in some form or another, somewhere. Also remember that the gypsy moth was introduced just as the Passenger Pigeon (a native species that occupied a similar role in the world of herbivory) was getting wiped out.
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Post by papiliotheona on Sept 15, 2013 7:13:30 GMT -8
Now only for Thailand, etc. to change their crazy and ridiculous domestic protected lists.
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Post by papiliotheona on Sept 15, 2013 7:11:01 GMT -8
I Name the ones that we are guilty of in history? Samia Cynthia would be a good start, but not a good argument of what happens to negatively impact our ecosystem, and in my opinion is one of the most hardy species. They have been here for many years, and if it wasn't for the imported very invasive Alainthus tree they probably wouldn't have stood a chance to survive in such low numbers and sparse populations that exist where they do. ... Lazy, ignorant and power hungry sums it up myotis. What I don't understand about the folks that seem like the Govt's are just in this, is most of them wouldn't admit that at some point now or past did break these regs. Do you have any idea how many great, respectable law abiding people in this country import, export and personally "smuggle" in Saturniids on their person? young and old. Read more: insectnet.proboards.com/post/34948/quote/4907#ixzz2eP3WbXX4Let's not forget gypsy moth.. The Wikipedia intro for the species.. The gypsy moth (Lymantria dispar) was introduced in 1868 into the United States by Leopold Trouvelot, a French scientist living in Medford, Massachusetts. Because native silk-spinning caterpillars were susceptible to disease, Trouvelot imported the species in order to breed a more resistant hybrid species. Some of the moths escaped, found suitable habitat, and began breeding. The gypsy moth is now a major pest of hardwood trees in the eastern United States.[1]
The first US outbreak occurred in 1889, and by 1987, the gypsy moth had established itself throughout the northeast US, southern Quebec, and Ontario. The insect has now spread into Michigan, Minnesota, Virginia, West Virginia, and Wisconsin. Small, isolated infestations have sporadically occurred in Utah, Oregon, Washington, California, and British Columbia, but these have been eradicated.[citation needed]
Since 1980, the gypsy moth has defoliated over one million acres (4,000 km2) of forest each year. In 1981, 12.9 million acres (52,200 km2) were defoliated. In wooded suburban areas, during periods of infestation, gypsy moth larvae crawl over man-made obstacles and sometimes enter homes.[2] When feeding, they leave behind a mixture of small pieces of leaves and frass, or excrement. During outbreaks, the sound of moths chewing and dropping frass may be loud enough to sound like light to moderate rainfall.[3] Gypsy moth populations usually remain low, but occasional increases to very high levels can result in partial or total defoliation of host trees.[4]
According to a 2011 report, the gypsy moth is now one of the most destructive insects in the eastern United States; it and other foliage-eating pests cause an estimated $868 million in annual damages in the U.S.[5] Note that even though he was a "professional" entomologist, in 1868 he still thought he could cross them with native silkmoths - a pretty amateurish idea. I'm a strong believer in these regulations - which are designed to reduce the rate at which exotic species become naturalized in the US. I don't want my ecosystems potentially degraded to accommodate your personal desire to raise cool cats. And I agree that your last comments pretty much some up the arguments of those who believe that their personal rights trump those of the rest of our citizenry. Shuey With all due respect, John, I think that the heavy-handed tactics the feds have used to control the gypsy moth (mass sprayings, release of insect pathogens, willy-nilly distributions of foreign parasitoids, etc.) have done far more damage to the ecosystem than the actual moth...
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Post by papiliotheona on Jul 31, 2013 17:45:30 GMT -8
I am with Adam Cotton. CITES (and all collecting laws) are pretty (and expensive) systems that were put in place to protect developers and commercial interests from having to do anything to mitigate their activities. We are a very convenient scapegoat.
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Post by papiliotheona on Jul 15, 2013 15:45:45 GMT -8
I'd like to know your Ruddy Daggerwing locality; please contact me offline!
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Post by papiliotheona on Jul 13, 2013 21:53:12 GMT -8
Other places:
Box Canyon in the Santa Ritas--you can never go wrong there and it's very close to Madera Florida Canyon, Ritas--Asterocampa and skipper paradise Chiricahua Mtns--recently burned, but a vast array of really neat things, some of which should be out in numbers South side of the Huachucas west of Coronado National Monument--good place to get Mexican moths Molino Basin area of Catalinas--basic, but close to town, easy access, and a lot of good "bread and butter" material
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Post by papiliotheona on Jul 13, 2013 21:38:58 GMT -8
I am strictly a butterfly collector but would generally agree with the above advice. National Parks are offlimits and tribal lands require a very limited, regulated permit.
The Flagstaff area has great butterflies circa May and June, but much less of a monsoonal response like further south. Pena Blanca Lake and Madera Canyon may be cliched, but they are consistently very good.
California Gulch is about 5 miles west and 5 miles south of Sycamore Canyon down the Forest Road 217 loop. Drive all the way down to the bottom where the canyon opens wide up. With recent Border Patrol grading these roads are generally very good; however, you can get lost as there are a number of unmarked forks on it.
My best area for total productivity is the Harshaw area of the Patagonias circa 10 days-2 weeks after the first pounding rain. That would be around July 20 this year.
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Post by papiliotheona on Jan 21, 2013 0:10:48 GMT -8
Filthy rag. She deceived me and many other of her interviewees.
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Post by papiliotheona on Jan 9, 2013 13:15:21 GMT -8
Any places where you can still get legal apollo, anywhere?
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Post by papiliotheona on Jan 9, 2013 13:14:02 GMT -8
Probably so, in my California you *technically* need a fishing license to collect, but it isn't enforced.
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