|
Post by lepidofrance on Jun 13, 2013 16:05:00 GMT -8
As a subject, I exist as well in 2012 than in 2013. If a 2013 law prohibits to wear a hat and if in 2012 I wore a hat (event), I was not off-the-law, since the law does not exist at this time.
I am sorry but I really do not understand a dialectic which opposes the SUBJECT to the EVENT because the subject would be sustainable when the event is transient: in front of the law, the subject is still considered in the event: innocent or guilty about an action or event.
|
|
|
|
Post by wollastoni on Jun 13, 2013 23:03:59 GMT -8
The law does not say it is forbidden to own a old CITES 1 species in private collection, it just says you have to declare it and obtain a permit for it.
So even an alexandrae caught in 1792 needs a permit.
Boring, stupid, but compulsory
|
|
|
Post by jonathan on Jun 14, 2013 1:33:30 GMT -8
I'm not a lawyer but as far as I know, laws cannot be applied retrospectively and with some exceptions this applies everywhere to everything. This is normally called ex post facto law. For example in Malta the constitution says that laws cannot be applied retorspectively. If you visit this link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_post_facto_law you can learn more about ex post facto laws and how differnt countries handle them. So I have my reservations how can CITES be applied retrospectively. What is the date when the CITES was erected please? Thanks Jonathan www.satyrinae.yolasite.com/
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 2:06:18 GMT -8
The law does not say it is forbidden to own a old CITES 1 species in private collection, it just says you have to declare it and obtain a permit for it.
So even an alexandrae caught in 1792 needs a permit.
Boring, stupid, but compulsory
I get it now, but it is still stupidity personified, its like saying I exposed my buttocks in a public place in 1990, it was not illegal to expose my buttocks in a public place in 1990 but it is illegal in 2013, I therefore need a permit to cover me for the time I exposed my buttocks in 1990.
|
|
|
Post by mikelock34 on Jun 14, 2013 5:33:02 GMT -8
In the place where I live the government is an untrustworthy, incompetent, unreliable mess. I possess two federal licenses for two different activities. It is impossible to get a straight answer from anyone on any subject when dealing with the government here. I have had specimens confiscated for no reason because a government agent involved said that he was unsure if the paperwork was correct. The paperwork was absolutely correct and in hand. He took the specimens until he could "check it out." That was twenty-something years ago and I have yet to have my specimens returned to me though the paperwork was confirmed correct. If you try to do what is correct here legal wise, you will in most cases be burned by government incompetence and just plain stupidity. I have had many instances where doing the right thing cost me money and time for no reason other than government incompetence. If you go to the government here with a specimen collected prior to CITES regulations to obtain correct paperwork for that specimen it is very likely you will lose your specimens due to the previously mentioned incompetence. That is what makes it so hard. The other governments in the world must be very nice to make obtaining correct paperwork so easy.
|
|
|
Post by timmsyrj on Jun 14, 2013 6:41:50 GMT -8
You only need a CITES permit to sell them not own them, old pre CITES specimens can be owned but to sell them you need to obtain the permit. Proving the specimen is Pre CITES is not that easy. Otherwise every time a species is added to the list everyone with them would have to apply for a permit to own it. It's called CITES Convention for the International TRADE In Endagered Species. Not CIOES Convention for the International Ownership of Endagered Species.
|
|
|
|
Post by stapleton on Jun 14, 2013 9:27:14 GMT -8
You only need a CITES permit to sell them not own them, old pre CITES specimens can be owned but to sell them you need to obtain the permit. Proving the specimen is Pre CITES is not that easy. Otherwise every time a species is added to the list everyone with them would have to apply for a permit to own it. It's called CITES Convention for the International TRADE In Endagered Species. Not CIOES Convention for the International Ownership of Endagered Species.
Well, them lawyers are already working on it, wait a little...
|
|
|
Post by jonathan on Jun 14, 2013 10:34:10 GMT -8
You only need a CITES permit to sell them not own them, old pre CITES specimens can be owned but to sell them you need to obtain the permit. Proving the specimen is Pre CITES is not that easy. Otherwise every time a species is added to the list everyone with them would have to apply for a permit to own it. It's called CITES Convention for the International TRADE In Endagered Species. Not CIOES Convention for the International Ownership of Endagered Species. Do not give lawyers ideas
|
|
|
Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 14, 2013 13:36:59 GMT -8
Rich's statement may be correct under UK law although I'm not certain of that, but different countries have different laws governing ownership and trade in CITES listed species. In many countries you have to register all the CITES specimens you own, including pre-CITES specimens, in order to make them legal.
Adam.
|
|
|
Post by suzuki on Jun 15, 2013 13:03:21 GMT -8
Well notwithstanding all the comments about whether certificates are or are not necessary,and in this instance these P.Hospiton are totally covered by Cities schedule 1,both have just been sold!
|
|
|
Post by lepidofrance on Jun 20, 2013 12:09:37 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by nomad on Jun 21, 2013 10:55:53 GMT -8
I found your article on your visit to Corsica to see the lovely Papilio hospiton really interesting. Nice images of the adult butterflies, foodplant and habitat. They were certainly taking nectar from a really beautiful plant, the bulbous Pancratium illyricum.
|
|
|
Post by suzuki on Jun 21, 2013 13:14:58 GMT -8
Yes an excellent thourghly informative article about a superb butterfly.Karl.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2013 7:42:29 GMT -8
Fantastic piece on Hospiton, a really superb butterfly, the ones on ebay were very expensive, I am surprised someone bought them at that price.
|
|
|
Post by wollastoni on Jun 22, 2013 7:44:59 GMT -8
Because of the CITES protection, some people think it is rare...
|
|