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Post by fishnbugz on Sept 24, 2019 22:27:50 GMT -8
Mothman, are you aware that Prager U receives funding from a couple brothers that made their fortunes in fracking and who wish only to "muddy the waters"? Wilks I think the name is. Prager plays for a team and are not interested in a true battle of ideas but in misinforming and muddying the waters. Of course, pretty much all mainstream media is also guilty of this to different degrees, but for me it is very obvious when I see a propagandist liar paid for by fossil fuel interests and I view anything they say with skepticism.
I'm normally not even gonna bother watching things meant to misinform, but I wanted to see what was appealing to your good sense in there so I watched it. I would place prager U in group 3 according to their video, media people stirring the poo and cashing in. I assure you they will never give you any information from this group 1 that they are speaking of...but I have listened to lectures from actual researchers in the arctic, and they are nowhere near as nonchalant about what is happening there as this dude is. If you still want to learn from an MIT professor, try Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent". Doubt you'll ever find it mentioned on Prager U, but I guarantee you Prager U are using techniques outlined there. I've learned to spot these lies instantly and be very skeptical of anything funded by the rich, and I look at sources I'm not familiar with to find out what's their angle. In this case the angle is pretty simple, they'll lie for money.
Here in the midwest, we are seeing climate change already for those who are paying attention. example 1 is the polar vortex. It is supposed to "mostly" stay up there around the pole. It no longer does, we have wild swings where the frigid air that is supposed to be around the pole gets pushed all the way down on the plains, or on the other side all the way down into Europe and Russia. Now, if you don't understand what's going on you think global warming is ridiculous because look how cold it is, but you're actually seeing a phenomenon caused by loss of polar ice... example 2 is my beloved Missouri River. In a normal year, we average somewhere around 30 to 35 million acre-feet of water in the whole basin. In 2011, we had what they called a 500 year flood, with total runoff of 61 million acre-feet of water. In 2019, we have an estimated 58.8 million acre-feet of water, less than a decade and it is only 2.2 MAF off the 500 yr flood. If I look at how the US Army Corps of Engineers manages that water, it was very rare previous to 1996 to have any spillway gates open. 1997 on, there are gates open about 75% of the time and sometimes massive amounts of water are pushed through. Interstate highway 29 near Omaha is underwater right now, and also earlier this year, and it was underwater in 2011 for months. If you ask the US Army COE, they'll tell you the climate has already changed, and in the future they expect this type of runoff to become the new normal. They spent millions of taxpayer dollars scooping rocks along a 1/2 mile of shoreline after the 2011 flood, despite already having millions of dollars worth of rock on the shoreline(maybe that rock was old) and no visible damage.
Gaspipe- Patrick Micheals is from Cato institute, originally called the Koch institute and funded by Charles Koch and others(don't you just wonder why they changed that name?). So, he may be very convincing to you, but for other "true thinkers" he's fully discredited just like that... I encourage you not to waste time reading, or to put too much stock in ANY argument pushed at you by the Oil Company tycoons themselves. I do however encourage you to source all your information and know who wants you to think that way. If they have a conflict of interest on an issue, the at-odds-with-consensus information they are pushing is probably just lies. Koch Bros funded propaganda simply doesn't work at all on me, it serves to convince me that I'm more likely correct if they're taking the opposing position.
If you're on the fence or skeptical, I'm here to help- BUT you gotta do better than to cite what big oil propagandists say. Actual "true thinkers" consider the source of all information before they decide it's believable. My challenge to you, find a few sources backing your opinion that are NOT funded by big oil tycoons or somebody like say Robert and Rebekah Mercer. It may be impossible, I've never found one but I guess I never looked either. It should be obvious to such a true thinker that I am reasonably able to sniff out most propaganda, and when a guy is on a bug forum fearmongering about socialism I can distinctly smell that propaganda has been consumed and bought into...if you truly do want the working class in the US to suffer far less, and you want actual change to gov't, working class "true thinkers" who want these things support Bernard Sanders/Medicare for all/jobs guarantee/etc.
Can you state for us some of these "facts" that show the planet placed in economic free-fall? I'd like to wish I could do some true thinking and then stomp on those arguments too, but you're so vague right now that it just sounds like some more crap fed to you by the propagandists of the rich who don't give a crap about anything or anybody else but themselves and their own bottom line. Do you think big oil, the alternative to less-polluting energies, is an example of the free-market at work? They are currently being heavily subsidized(SOCIALISM!)...i/e, the "market forces" you true thinkers know should drive the change to cleaner energy, are right now being applied to BIG OIL, as a "socialist driven gov't mandate". True thinkers might be the only ones who actually know what a "true" climatologist looks like- so I'm not sure us regular folk can distinguish a "true" climatologist, is that just the ones who work for CATO?
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Post by fishnbugz on Sept 24, 2019 23:00:41 GMT -8
Mothman, are you aware that Prager U receives funding from a couple brothers that made their fortunes in fracking and who wish only to "muddy the waters"? Wilks I think the name is. Prager plays for a team and are not interested in a true battle of ideas but in misinforming and muddying the waters. Of course, pretty much all mainstream media is also guilty of this to different degrees, but for me it is very obvious when I see a propagandist liar paid for by fossil fuel interests and I view anything they say with skepticism. I'm normally not even gonna bother watching things meant to misinform, but I wanted to see what was appealing to your good sense in there so I watched it. I would place prager U in group 3 according to their video, media people stirring the poo and cashing in. I assure you they will never give you any information from this group 1 that they are speaking of...but I have listened to lectures from actual researchers in the arctic, and they are nowhere near as nonchalant about what is happening there as this dude is. If you still want to learn from an MIT professor, try Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent". Doubt you'll ever find it mentioned on Prager U, but I guarantee you Prager U are using techniques outlined there. I've learned to spot these lies instantly and be very skeptical of anything funded by the rich, and I look at sources I'm not familiar with to find out what's their angle. In this case the angle is pretty simple, they'll lie for money. Here in the midwest, we are seeing climate change already for those who are paying attention. example 1 is the polar vortex. It is supposed to "mostly" stay up there around the pole. It no longer does, we have wild swings where the frigid air that is supposed to be around the pole gets pushed all the way down on the plains, or on the other side all the way down into Europe and Russia. Now, if you don't understand what's going on you think global warming is ridiculous because look how cold it is, but you're actually seeing a phenomenon caused by loss of polar ice... example 2 is my beloved Missouri River. In a normal year, we average somewhere around 30 to 35 million acre-feet of water in the whole basin. In 2011, we had what they called a 500 year flood, with total runoff of 61 million acre-feet of water. In 2019, we have an estimated 58.8 million acre-feet of water, less than a decade and it is only 2.2 MAF off the 500 yr flood. The total flood control storage of all the Mo River reservoirs is around 15 MAF if you're wondering, there's a lot more water coming down than they can hold back. If I look at how the US Army Corps of Engineers manages that water, it was very rare previous to 1996 to have any spillway gates open. 1997 on, there are gates open about 75% of the time and sometimes massive amounts of water are pushed through. Interstate highway 29 near Omaha is underwater right now, and also earlier this year, and it was underwater in 2011 for months. If you ask the US Army COE, they'll tell you the climate has already changed, and in the future they expect this type of runoff to become the new normal. They spent millions of taxpayer dollars scooping rocks along a 1/2 mile of shoreline after the 2011 flood, despite already having millions of dollars worth of rock on the shoreline(maybe that rock was old) and no visible damage. Gaspipe- Patrick Micheals is from Cato institute, originally called the Koch institute and funded by Charles Koch and others(don't you just wonder why they changed that name?). So, he may be very convincing to you, but for other "true thinkers" he's fully discredited just like that... I encourage you not to waste time reading, or to put too much stock in ANY argument pushed at you by the Oil Company tycoons themselves. I do however encourage you to source all your information and know who wants you to think that way. If they have a conflict of interest on an issue, the at-odds-with-consensus information they are pushing is probably just lies. Koch Bros funded propaganda simply doesn't work at all on me, it serves to convince me that I'm more likely correct if they're taking the opposing position. If you're on the fence or skeptical, I'm here to help- BUT you gotta do better than to cite what big oil propagandists say. Actual "true thinkers" consider the source of all information before they decide it's believable. My challenge to you, find a few sources backing your opinion that are NOT funded by big oil tycoons or somebody like say Robert and Rebekah Mercer. It may be impossible, I've never found one but I guess I never looked either. It should be obvious to such a true thinker that I am reasonably able to sniff out most propaganda, and when a guy is on a bug forum fearmongering about socialism I can distinctly smell that propaganda has been consumed and bought into...if you truly do want the working class in the US to suffer far less, and you want actual change to gov't, working class "true thinkers" who want these things support Bernard Sanders/Medicare for all/jobs guarantee/etc. Can you state for us some of these "facts" that show the planet placed in economic free-fall? I'd like to wish I could do some true thinking and then stomp on those arguments too, but you're so vague right now that it just sounds like some more crap fed to you by the propagandists of the rich who don't give a crap about anything or anybody else but themselves and their own bottom line. Do you think big oil, the alternative to less-polluting energies, is an example of the free-market at work? They are currently being heavily subsidized(SOCIALISM!)...i/e, the "market forces" you true thinkers know should drive the change to cleaner energy, are right now being applied to BIG OIL, as a "socialist driven gov't mandate". True thinkers might be the only ones who actually know what a "true" climatologist looks like- so I'm not sure us regular folk can distinguish a "true" climatologist, is that just the ones who work for CATO? |
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Post by fishnbugz on Sept 24, 2019 23:07:01 GMT -8
I(tried to) edit in the flood control storage capacity into there so the Missouri River numbers might make more sense, guess I clicked the wrong button. 250 mile long Lake Oahe has less than 5 million acre-feet of storage, so it's impossible for them to hold back all the water they're getting these days
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Post by Adam Cotton on Sept 25, 2019 2:50:10 GMT -8
This girl thrives on hysyeria, she has asperger's syndrome. And its sickening how they use her to spread fear and misguided action Aspergers's syndrome has nothing or very little to do with it. My late father, sister and I all have/had asperger's syndrome and we are/were perfectly normal people. It has different effects on each person, and I do not think that the asperger's "label" should be used as an excuse or to lay blame. Adam. |
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Post by exoticimports on Sept 25, 2019 4:09:22 GMT -8
Last week my 12 YO observed that if we removed a portion of the railing on the back deck it would create a more open environment and better ergonomics. An astute statement for certain, so I broke out the saw and did so. That said, it’s rare that I take advise from a 16 YO. What’s next, is Greta going to lecture on world finances?  Let me know when they're raising sheep and cattle on Greenland again and we'll talk. Not that the environment isn't a concern. But maybe we can tackle deforestation first, something simple, eh? It is not surprising that people are concerned about the environment. What is surprising is that they show no concern about the house of cards called society and overpopulation. One hiccup- environmental, logistical, economical, maybe a pandemic or EMPs- and 90% of the population (and 99% of urban populations) is gone (dead) within six months. Chuck |
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Post by bichos on Sept 25, 2019 5:26:23 GMT -8
This girl thrives on hysyeria, she has asperger's syndrome. And its sickening how they use her to spread fear and misguided action Aspergers's syndrome has nothing or very little to do with it. My late father, sister and I all have/had asperger's syndrome and we are/were perfectly normal people. It has different effects on each person, and I do not think that the asperger's "label" should be used as an excuse or to lay blame. Adam. Ok Blame? Excuse? Not really suggesting that at all. I agree Asperger's syndrome but only part of this debacle. As a typically unstable teenager, Greta is clearly deranged. Would i be correct in saying that; due to the fact that she has asperger's, she is more susceptible to being obsessive with climate change? I think she freaks out more than the average person because of her condition and people have responded to it. Furthermore, her parents and her followers have fuelled this. She has grown to love the attention and accolades, which do nothing but feed into her climate hysteria. A label if you will, but, I think there is validity in highlighting the fact that she has asperger's. This makes her even more vulnerable to exploitation. She is a true victim. A form of abuse, as far as im concerned. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Sept 25, 2019 5:55:22 GMT -8
bichos, You may be right. Certainly taking advantage of kids is deplorable under any circumstances. Adam.
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Post by exoticimports on Sept 25, 2019 10:03:59 GMT -8
bichos, You may be right. Certainly taking advantage of kids is deplorable under any circumstances. Adam. This has been going on for a generation now, it's indoctrination. Schools are loaded with under-educated teachers and administrators as a result of paying them lower than other professionals like engineers. This is what we get. If teaching paid as much as engineering, more engineering-leaning people would have selected teaching as a profession and we've have a higher level of logic and reason in students (and graduates). |
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rjb
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Post by rjb on Sept 25, 2019 11:06:36 GMT -8
Gaspipe:
About reading Patrick Michaels
It is important to remember that all science is done through the peer-reviewed literature. Individuals like Patrick Michaels, regardless of his credentials as a former climate scientist, is welcome to his opinions, but his honesty or mental fitness are in question when he is using the same science (the same publications) as the other 70,000 climate scientists but comes to a different conclusion. Scientists are only human and you cannot tell if someone is paying him to lie about this. I would check every one of his science citations in his books to make sure he is not misrepresenting them. It is a mystery why any honest climatologist can read the papers and come to his dramatically wrong conclusions. You yourself should read the raw literature.
It started with smoking and the tobacco industry getting the support of some respected physicists to lie to the public about the cancer connection. The tobacco industry tried successfully to delay public perception of the danger as long as they could. For all you know, the Cato Institute and Michaels may be funded by the Koch brothers or the fossil fuel industry to lie to you. Check it out.
Rick
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Post by papilio28570 on Sept 25, 2019 21:39:10 GMT -8
CO2 has increased approximately 130 parts per million over the past 150 years or so. While that may be about a 45% increase in CO2, if the number 1 represented a million molecules of atmosphere, it is only a .000130 increase and I do not believe an additional 130 molecules of CO2 per million molecules of atmosphere or a shift of .000130 is going to dramatically change the long term weather of the planet.
Ice has been melting on the Earth for the past 12,000 years. There is no firm knowledge about what starts or ends an ice age and the Earth has had more than a few. But, as ice melts, the ratio between its volume and its square surface area change and this affects the melt rate. This explains the acceleration observed in global ice melt. The less ice there is the less influence the ice has on effecting its preservation. A natural climate process that began roughly 12,000 years ago is progressing along a natural feedback loop. Ice core data reveals a rough regularity to the occurrence of ice ages, so the planet has been "here" before. Animal species died, the planet's surface was reshaped by glaciers, bla, bla, bla. But just stop for a moment and think about an ice pack one and a half miles thick sitting upon what is now Boston. It took thousands upon thousands of years for that to melt all the way back to Greenland or wherever.
The 97% consensus among scientists is a load of crap. Read John Cook's paper for yourself! But most are to lazy to do that. Out of the 29,000+ authors of the 11,944 peer reviewed papers, 8000 authors of roughly 4500 papers were asked to self rate there own papers. Just 14% or only 1120 authors responded and out of those 97% agreed with their own work. What the hell kind of a review process is that??? That 97% of the 14% respondents is actually 3.7% consensus. Plus to begin with, 67% of the 11,944 peer reviewed papers gave no opinion on whether the warming was caused by humans.
Yet everyone missed the whole point. Cook is/was a human behavioral researcher in Australia whose research found that if you can build consensus, you can change people's minds. He admitted this in a 2012 interview. The 97% consensus report came out in 2013 and was later followed up with a consensus on the consensus report in 2016. So everyone running around promulgating the 97% myth is simply a part of the Cook lie. He played a numbers game hoax on everyone and hyped it as fact and the ignorant swallowed it. This is no different really from political astro-turfing or orchestrating social subversion.
I could go on and on but just about everyone is stuck in the position they staked out a long time ago on the global climate change subject matter. Show me one paper and I'll show you one to refute it. Real science has been hijacked by the government. Its all about the Benjamins baby.
And oh, BTW Bill, "market forces" did not lead "our country into the 2008 abyss". It was government interference with market forces that led to the housing market collapse and all that followed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 22:37:19 GMT -8
“And oh, BTW Bill, "market forces" did not lead "our country into the 2008 abyss". It was government interference with market forces that led to the housing market collapse and all that followed.”
That’s your take on it......not mine. Even if, for the sake of discussion, the government were to blame, it was, never the less, a market force driven failure. I’m not inclined to condone such market force actions determining the fate of mankind. One can put blame on the source of his/her choice, but the fact remains that the market is as stable/reliable as the ground is in an earthquake.
Regarding ice melt, yes.....it’s been melting for a while. But the rate of melt in the last fifty years is the same as what would have taken hundreds of years. In other words, the ice melt has accelerated. Why? Volcanoes, yes. Man made CO2 emissions, yes. Deforestation, yes.
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Post by jhyatt on Sept 26, 2019 5:22:14 GMT -8
I agree with Bill Garth. "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose." It's a matter of rate, not of the end point. Climate changes no matter what we do.
jh
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Post by gaspipe on Sept 26, 2019 8:22:03 GMT -8
I agree with Bill Garth. "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose." It's a matter of rate, not of the end point. Climate changes no matter what we do. jh Exactly right. Mankind puts way too much importance on itself. We’re just another blip in the span of time. |
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Post by gaspipe on Sept 26, 2019 14:08:16 GMT -8
So nothing really has a point.... we are all just going to die anyways, so why even bother? One thing that many persons opposed to Greta Thunberg seem NOT to understand is that this girl is actually rather gifted and well informed about the science on climate change and ecosystem destruction - quite likely thanks to her Asperger's diagnose. She simply has a better understanding of climate change and ecosystem destruction than most "normal" people. I do understand that some may find that a rather grim feeling, being outsmarted by a 16 year old girl with a diagnose! Some people may think that being of a higher age kinda automatically make them more clever. This is not always the case though. This girl has a mind of her own - a real true thinker. She is NOT being used by adults for their agenda's and its rather her leading the adults! Meanwhile, for those who DO care about living on for now (before the sun dies in many millions and millions of years in the future) and want to do something good for the natural world - which we are talking about here on this forum, daily - there will be another 4 million plus on climate strike Friday, 27 September, at 170 countries and 6640 events worldwide. I'll be at one with my wife, and my daughter with her whole class as well. Find your local event at FridaysForFuture.org Greta will be in Montreal, Canada, Friday, and public transit in the City will be free. Last Friday, Montreal brought 150.000 to the streets and even more will be there this Friday. The speech held by Greta at the Climate Action Summit landed her some negative comments. Her reply on Instagram and Twitter was: "Here we go again... As you may have noticed, the haters are as active as ever - going after me, my looks, my clothes, my behaviour and my differences. They come up with every thinkable lie and conspiracy theory. It seems they will cross every possible line to avert the focus, since they are so desperate not to talk about the climate and ecological crisis. Being different is not an illness and the current, best available science is not opinions - it’s facts. I honestly am don’t understand why adults would choose to spend their time mocking and threatening teenagers and children for promoting science, when they could do something good instead. I guess they must simply feel so threatened by us. But don’t waste your time giving them any more attention. The world is waking up. Change is coming whether they like it or not. See you in the streets this Friday!" [twitter
url="https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/status/1176930548146692096"]
I'll be back over the weekend, when work is not keeping me busy  Jan [bra Iam sure she’s a nice kid ; bit of a drama queen . As an aside; as someone in the health care arena Asperger’s is very much over diagnosed enitity. Of course if you question anything about climate change ( whatever that even means) you are a hater. Oh well Iam a racist and mysoginist as well ; that’s what your called when you don’t drink the coolaid. |
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Post by gaspipe on Sept 27, 2019 5:25:40 GMT -8
I think climate change means exactly that - a change of the climate. Try Google, maybe there's some good answers there. Jan You mean like what has continually happened throughout the history of the planet? |
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