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Post by billgarthe on Sept 25, 2019 22:37:19 GMT -8
“And oh, BTW Bill, "market forces" did not lead "our country into the 2008 abyss". It was government interference with market forces that led to the housing market collapse and all that followed.”
That’s your take on it......not mine. Even if, for the sake of discussion, the government were to blame, it was, never the less, a market force driven failure. I’m not inclined to condone such market force actions determining the fate of mankind. One can put blame on the source of his/her choice, but the fact remains that the market is as stable/reliable as the ground is in an earthquake.
Regarding ice melt, yes.....it’s been melting for a while. But the rate of melt in the last fifty years is the same as what would have taken hundreds of years. In other words, the ice melt has accelerated. Why? Volcanoes, yes. Man made CO2 emissions, yes. Deforestation, yes.
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Post by jhyatt on Sept 26, 2019 5:22:14 GMT -8
I agree with Bill Garth. "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose." It's a matter of rate, not of the end point. Climate changes no matter what we do.
jh
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Post by gaspipe on Sept 26, 2019 8:22:03 GMT -8
I agree with Bill Garth. "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose." It's a matter of rate, not of the end point. Climate changes no matter what we do. jh Exactly right. Mankind puts way too much importance on itself. We’re just another blip in the span of time. |
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Post by gaspipe on Sept 26, 2019 14:08:16 GMT -8
So nothing really has a point.... we are all just going to die anyways, so why even bother? One thing that many persons opposed to Greta Thunberg seem NOT to understand is that this girl is actually rather gifted and well informed about the science on climate change and ecosystem destruction - quite likely thanks to her Asperger's diagnose. She simply has a better understanding of climate change and ecosystem destruction than most "normal" people. I do understand that some may find that a rather grim feeling, being outsmarted by a 16 year old girl with a diagnose! Some people may think that being of a higher age kinda automatically make them more clever. This is not always the case though. This girl has a mind of her own - a real true thinker. She is NOT being used by adults for their agenda's and its rather her leading the adults! Meanwhile, for those who DO care about living on for now (before the sun dies in many millions and millions of years in the future) and want to do something good for the natural world - which we are talking about here on this forum, daily - there will be another 4 million plus on climate strike Friday, 27 September, at 170 countries and 6640 events worldwide. I'll be at one with my wife, and my daughter with her whole class as well. Find your local event at FridaysForFuture.org Greta will be in Montreal, Canada, Friday, and public transit in the City will be free. Last Friday, Montreal brought 150.000 to the streets and even more will be there this Friday. The speech held by Greta at the Climate Action Summit landed her some negative comments. Her reply on Instagram and Twitter was: "Here we go again... As you may have noticed, the haters are as active as ever - going after me, my looks, my clothes, my behaviour and my differences. They come up with every thinkable lie and conspiracy theory. It seems they will cross every possible line to avert the focus, since they are so desperate not to talk about the climate and ecological crisis. Being different is not an illness and the current, best available science is not opinions - it’s facts. I honestly am don’t understand why adults would choose to spend their time mocking and threatening teenagers and children for promoting science, when they could do something good instead. I guess they must simply feel so threatened by us. But don’t waste your time giving them any more attention. The world is waking up. Change is coming whether they like it or not. See you in the streets this Friday!" [twitter
url="https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/status/1176930548146692096"]
I'll be back over the weekend, when work is not keeping me busy  Jan [bra Iam sure she’s a nice kid ; bit of a drama queen . As an aside; as someone in the health care arena Asperger’s is very much over diagnosed enitity. Of course if you question anything about climate change ( whatever that even means) you are a hater. Oh well Iam a racist and mysoginist as well ; that’s what your called when you don’t drink the coolaid. |
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Post by gaspipe on Sept 27, 2019 5:25:40 GMT -8
I think climate change means exactly that - a change of the climate. Try Google, maybe there's some good answers there. Jan You mean like what has continually happened throughout the history of the planet? |
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Post by fishnbugz on Sept 27, 2019 9:06:18 GMT -8
Gaspipe your questions on climate change are planted there by the 889 million dollars the Koch brothers spent between 2009 and 2016 to do exactly that, along with a few of their uber-rich buddies. I'm not gonna convince anyone they've been fooled, but you simultaneously discuss concern for poor working class while advocating doing exactly what the billionaire oil men want done, nothing! I don't want an oil spill on my river, but Turnip-head and Co. approved a pipeline and put it right through the river 5 minutes after he got in there. Now they can get their tar-sands oil to port and ship it out of the country, but we get all the enviro-risk and no real reward. Fishing tourism is a million-dollar industry on the river that far exceeds navigation interests, but they are managing the whole Mo. River system for barge traffic that barely exists today. Seen the "jumping carp" videos on social media? I've had as many as 50 silver carp jump into the boat with me in a matter of a couple minutes, we had about 15 jump into the boat in about 10 seconds on Tuesday. Talk about a slimy mess I shouldn't even have to deal with... We've got Bighead and Silver Carp, and Grass Carp because a select few catfish farmers let the free market convince them it was a great idea, and because regulations were not in place or enforced. The last 20 years of presidents have not acted to mitigate this, in fact in the case of W actually obstructed science, because there was money applying political pressure to keep it status quo. They've spent a few million on electronic fish barriers to keep the carp out of the great lakes, and also there are reports that they've already breached that barrier. Free market dictates that we did not physically close the man-made canals that allow a direct link from infested water to "not known to be infested" water, a common sense solution that would cost the rich/corporations but produce jobs for the poor. The farmers around here love the free market, they put fertilizer, pesticide, and herbicide on the ground every year and then the government cuts them a check too; the biggest farmer in my county gets $750,000 from the taxpayers each year, this is public info that anyone can look up. Then their chemicals run off the land into my river and out into the sea, or leach down into the aquifer. This is is how the "free market" works in America- we don't do what's best for the people and/or the environment, we do what makes rich people the most money. www.ucsusa.org/center-for-science-and-democracy/scientific_integrity/abuses_of_science/a-to-z/missouri-river.html Meanwhile, in my area in the last 2 yrs, hundreds of wind generators are popping up within a 20-30 mile radius of my home. It's providing a huge influx of jobs and money, and I see those windmill parts rolling down the highways nearly every time I drive. It doesn't look at all like "going green" is gonna fuel an economic collapse here, it looks like loads of good jobs building, transporting, and setting these things up on land that's already completely private owned row crops of corn or beans. Other than a little deadly windmill cancer and a few birds lost, there isn't a lot of drawback. The companies improved the county roads to fit the huge parts even. The status quo just isn't what I want: www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/10/earths-sixth-mass-extinction-event-already-underway-scientists-warnIt took thousands of years for the human population to hit 1 billion. It took 100 years to hit 2 billion. We are now at 7.7 billion people and we add anther billion every 12 years. Earth has a finite amount of arable land, we're already using most of it, and it's producing at near full capacity in the developed world(meaning there isn't much potential to dramatically increase yields in many places). The oceans are getting tapped out too. I expect at some point in the future we're gonna have to eat the rich. cdn.zmescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/world_population_1050_to_2050.jpgPeople act like the green new deal is terrible because it has a price tag, but tons of future jobs are included in that cost and inaction may prove far more costly. I think things like Mountaintop removal coal mining for a buck, leaving people with frack-induced earthquakes or flammable tap water for a buck, the Deepwater Horizon spill and spraying "Corexit" dispersal chemical all over the ocean are terrible, andlosing even 1 single extant species that can never be brought back, displacing whole natural ecosystems with invasive species- every time this happens, that's something lost that nobody can even put a price tag on. There are very good reasons to change course even if global warming were to be proven false this very afternoon...which it won't. The evidence will become clearer and clearer, but it's basically on our kids to fix this- after the people obstructing change finally die off or get eaten. |
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Post by fishnbugz on Sept 27, 2019 9:31:58 GMT -8
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Post by gaspipe on Sept 27, 2019 10:05:23 GMT -8
No worries China will be eating your lunch in a few years. Best go plug in your electric cars . Are the Koch brothers the same guys who support unlimited immigration ; illegal or otherwise to drive down wages for hard working US citizens? As I said if you don’t drink the coolaid you are the problem. Oh well let me hop in my huge Ford pickup and guzzle some gas . Oh and tell Greta while she’s being flown around on those polluting 747’s Gaspipe says hello. Gee wonder why we still have ozone in the atomsphere? Shoulda been depleted and caused the ice age of the 1990’s. |
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Post by fishnbugz on Sept 27, 2019 11:12:10 GMT -8
Well, what I watched happen here was the rich locked out the labor back in the 80's when the union contract expired. THey eventually put them back to work at a lower wage than they were making before, But in the meantime they went down to Texas and farther, and they brought back scabs to cross the picket lines. Now they're telling you it's some poor powerless people who are causing all the problems, and we gotta have a wall. My dad was one of those union workers. The owners sold the union workers down the river so they could keep a bigger share. They never did stop using immigrant labor to depress wages, but you want to blame the powerless person rather than the people who actually do/did it(like Bonespurs)? China offered the rich cheap manufacturing, and they sold america's middle class down the river so they could have a bigger cut. They're having our lunch right now, more jobs were outsourced in 2017 than 2016. Trump's trade war is doing wonders for the farmers out here in Nebraska, just like it is in Coal country. www.businessinsider.com/us-coal-bankruptcy-trump-2016-12Big oil didn't want to compete with electric cars, so they made sure they wouldn't have to. I don't really like paying for expensive gas, but I quite well understand that there is no replacement for it when I want to pull my boat to the river and to actually drive the boat. But I'd absolutely be down with charging my commuter car for pennies per mile and never buying gas again. I hear this argument occasionally, that the person telling you things you don't like hearing about the environment or climate is a hypocrite because they flew on a plane. 100 companies worldwide are responsible for 70 percent of all emissions. So unless you are one of the billionaires, probably running one of those companies, there is not much any one person can do to address the scale of the problem. Any one person in a sea of 7.7 billion people- who total only 30% of the emissions to begin with, isn't gonna do anything much. You really are a true thinker Gaspipe. 1.bp.blogspot.com/_TTlH62UF4EU/TIJ22RRjFjI/AAAAAAAABfU/VLms2WsXmPU/s400/koolaid-large.jpg |
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Post by exoticimports on Sept 27, 2019 17:39:18 GMT -8
Good lord, the problem is strictly one of population. Forget everything else. If it isn’t global warming, deforestation will kill the planet. If not that the destroyed oceans. Or fertilizer. Or whatever. Fix any one problem and there are ten more to ruin the planet.
But worry not! All instances of overpopulation fix themselves. 500 years later earth will recover.
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Post by Paul K on Sept 27, 2019 19:16:00 GMT -8
I agree, overpopulation is the only problem.
More people-more food, more land has to be cleared for food production, more heating, more electricity needed, more cars more CO2.
Best solution for global warming: Stop reproducing.
I think we may get to that point when having a child will be a luxury and only the richest will afford to have children.
I can see this is already happening in America and Europe.
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Post by bichos on Sept 28, 2019 3:49:11 GMT -8
A little gem to restore the faith
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Post by leptraps on Sept 28, 2019 5:50:23 GMT -8
Personally, I think Global Warming is the result of too many Mexican Restaurants. We consume way too many Chimichuangas, Tacos and refried beans. The shear amount of natural gas produced by the human body and the result of Flatulence and especially NARF, is having its effects on our planet.
I should know, I am a major contributor.
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Post by catocala59 on Sept 28, 2019 12:33:39 GMT -8
I thought twice about starting to read this thread, and now I wish I hadn't.
I freely admit to having been on the fence about climate change until about 5 years ago. Clearly it is happening, and happening rapidly, and whether you think it is man-made or not is irrelevant when actions that can be taken to at least mitigate the negative impacts are entirely in our hands.
It is clearly in our collective interests to reduce CO2 emissions, methane leakage from fracking, etc., and equally in the interests of every other species on the planet that we stop the wholesale habitat destruction which is, or will, compound climate instability and its effects asap.
There are many cost-effective and potentially life-enhancing opportunities to change the way we do things that would reduce the levels of greenhouse gasses and the sooner we start the better for us and the rest of the planet. I urge anyone interested to read "Drawdown" edited by Paul Hawken.
As for Greta, I think she has been spot on with everything I have heard her say, and frankly to mistake passion for hysteria is misguided. She shows more commitment, lucidity, and purpose than many of the 'grown-ups' who are supposedly leading us.
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Post by fishnbugz on Sept 28, 2019 18:20:33 GMT -8
I am only in here because I know what the science on the subject says, I didn't put any interest in Greta or the other childish videos mocking her. I see a lot of folks grabbing a piece or two of propaganda masquerading as science, deciding they now know all there is to know over that or maybe some 40 year old prediction when the science was still lacking. In the information age if you're gonna have an opinion, on any subject, it should be an informed opinion.
There are a great deal of videos which do takedowns of Prager U from this dude and several other youtubers. I once read that true thinkers look at both sides of an issue. Maybe that was just BS though, I don't think that's what was actually happening.
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Post by leptraps on Sept 29, 2019 17:02:22 GMT -8
Now I know what some of you will think of this post, however. It has the possibility of being true.
Every human body creates flatulence. Mostly CO2. And then there's NARF. Now consider the world's population is 7.7 Billion. We all break wind daily. My wife claimed I could inhale and rather than exhale, I just farted.
Now consider global warming. Nope, it ain't gonna happen.
I had a black cat once upon a time. Feed that old cat sardines, there were a couple of times we had to vacate our home. The poor cat got blamed when I popped a SBD...
If global warming was caused by man, according to my late wife Ms Betty, I alone could be responsible.
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Post by fishnbugz on Sept 29, 2019 19:18:15 GMT -8
Here Potholer54 shows evidence that proves TRUE climatologist Patrick Micheals is a liar, to congress no less. Right around the 13:30 mark in the video that part starts. Now, maybe you see things differently, but to me when I catch them in a lie that means the house of cards they've constructed lays collapsed on the ground. I haven't put any effort at all into gathering this information, it's all at everyone's fingertips and of course, this youtuber is just one of many that offer these sorts of services.
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Post by exoticimports on Oct 1, 2019 10:58:31 GMT -8
Climate change like most of you won’t comprehend: 93F to 37F (34 to 3) in three days! I can’t wait! Any butterfly that isn’t dead yet soon will be.
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Post by gaspipe on Oct 2, 2019 13:36:46 GMT -8
Nonsense and more nonsense . Your studies do not standup to rigid analysis . Why? They can never account for the huge number of variables in the climate equation. This nonsense needs to be pedaled elsewhere.
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Post by gaspipe on Oct 2, 2019 16:35:56 GMT -8
The climate strikes the past two Fridays brought at least 7 million people on the streets. On Friday 20th September Montreal, Canada saw 150.000 on the streets, while Friday 27th September saw more than 3 times that number - half a million! That is roughly 30% of the 1.7 mill. population of Montreal. That's pretty good going!  Aspergers's syndrome has nothing or very little to do with it. My late father, sister and I all have/had asperger's syndrome and we are/were perfectly normal people. It has different effects on each person, and I do not think that the asperger's "label" should be used as an excuse or to lay blame. Adam. This girl thrives on hysyeria, she has asperger's syndrome. And its sickening how they use her to spread fear and misguided action Passing negative comments on persons with a handicap and/or a diagnosis - autism, Asperger, etc. is in my opinion just pitiful. Appreciating it is not one self that was unfortunate to end up with handicap or diagnosis would help to show a level of empathy and understanding. It is well known that people that have run out of factual arguments, may often lower themselves to personal insults. Greta Thunberg, having her Asperger's diagnose, seem to get a lot of hate comments and personal insults. As a typically unstable teenager, Greta is clearly deranged. Would i be correct in saying that; due to the fact that she has asperger's, she is more susceptible to being obsessive with climate change? I think she freaks out more than the average person because of her condition and people have responded to it. Furthermore, her parents and her followers have fuelled this. She has grown to love the attention and accolades, which do nothing but feed into her climate hysteria. A label if you will, but, I think there is validity in highlighting the fact that she has asperger's. This makes her even more vulnerable to exploitation. She is a true victim. A form of abuse, as far as im concerned. Due to her Asperger she is an introvert - thus it is quite a bold statement to say that she has grown to love the attention. That is exactly what she hate! Calling a person with a diagnosis (which this person did not choose to have) for "clearly deranged" point the finger straight back to the, should be, mature minded adult, from where such words are coming. Now, who freaks out more than the average person that a teenage girl can actually appeal to and mobilize people by their millions in more than 165 countries? Her followers have fueled this. Followers of Trump also fuel his escapades. Same thing really, isn't it? Personally I'd rather listen to scientists and a 16 old girl that makes common sense to me, than to a money greedy old dude like Trump that has but a few more years left in this world. After all, he is rather old and seem to care more about his position, power and monetary ambitions than about the future of the younger generations. I'll any time go with the young people - they may exactly be the ones that will actually change things so my own grand children may see the wonders of the nature I grew up with, the plants, the meadows, the forests, the butterflies, the snow capped mountains and all the other gorgeous natural wonders we have been lucky to see and breathe! What is VERY MUCH worth noting is that this girl gives a shish about anyone's political opinions, left or right. She only argue for action on the subject of climate change and our worldwide collapsing ecosystems and human's inaction on these real problems. These two subjects are obviously directly connected! Most people unfortunately have not bothered to engage themselves in understanding what is driving this girl and why she appeal to so many persons. Repeatedly one will hear this trash argument from persons that have no knowledge of her background that she's being exploited by grown ups and that she's a victim of the same. This is really totally and utterly BS! She's the one in the driver's seat! She say her mind and for sure she will not be bullied around. This is why she appeal to so many young people worldwide and also why so many adults can not handle her. She has more guts and balls than these mostly middle aged and old (choose a color) men that feel themselves threatened by her reach. As she said; Change is coming, whether you like it or not! My family support her ambitions. Even my brother is in support - from that lifelong "whatever" attitude and denial. In Norway there is this talk show named "Skavlan". It's also aired on Swedish TV. Its not as fancy a talk show as those in the US, but interviews are much less of a superficial reality show and quite more deep, informative and educational. Last Friday an interview from this talk show was uploaded to YouTube, and though negative comments - rather than good arguments - is bound to be posted, the careful observer might actually learn something here. These videos are in Norwegian and Swedish, but simply click on the CC icon for English subtitles. From January 2019 Jan What a pile of garbage . She is entitled to her opinion and is used by the media because she has been made a sympathetic figure. Trouble is she , sadly has been brainwashed with so called “scientific” studies that are designed to prove a conclusion reached before the study began. As I said complete nonsense. |
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Post by exoticimports on Oct 3, 2019 3:47:41 GMT -8
One million attendees clearly indicating that Change is Coming:  Make enough noise about something, there's always some group that will jump on the bandwagon...like Schalburg Corps, the Danish SS division:  And it's always nice to have a European poster child to educate the masses:  |
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Post by exoticimports on Oct 3, 2019 9:39:13 GMT -8
The greatest threat to the environment is human over population. Dramatic climate change is the most effective solution to the problem.
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Post by wingedwishes on Oct 3, 2019 13:16:39 GMT -8
"I do not know if those pictures are from your family photo album...." You think that's ok? Wait-do not answer that. I already know the answer. A valid point was made displaying mob mentality and showed how it is often detrimental. You just reinforced it. Looks like Exoticimports touched a nerve. -Protests do serve one good purpose though= they generally get the ignorant to burn a lot of energy and then leave. You know....like Earth Day. I'll display a similar example of this kind of rhetoric. Remember this is for example only: I find it disturbing that a 49 year old man spends so much time watching videos of and talking about 16 year old girls...... The arguments are just ignorant. Science shows change is happening by data. Scientists are notoriously bad [examples are myriad] at future predictions because not all data can be predicted or accounted for. People are rebellious. They do not want to be told what to do. Speeding; littering; murder; prostitution is/are generally illegal yet government has yet to stop it. How many off the signers of the Paris accords have succeeded? The USA reduced co2 several years in a row until there was an unusually COLD start to 2018. 2019 may be be worse as there was almost 3 feet of snow in the USA in September. Crying wolf so many times has caused many to tune out predictions. Sending a child to scold leaders rather than provide methods to solve problems. Doesn't work? Read this then: theoceancleanup.com/updates/No government paying for this. Just people trying to be good stewards of the planet by cleaning up after some others. No protest or lectures needed and yet this little group is doing more than all the kids skipping school combined. Exoticimports. We differ slightly. Overpopulation has corrections built into nature like famine or disease or war or natural disaster. A lemming effect so to speak. More importantly to me is that a world with only one billion people would still be walloped by irresponsible caretaking. If you respond please: 1. make sure you understand what I wrote. Just ask if you are not sure. 2. do not use straw man arguments 3. impugn myself or other members 4. work with rather than against forum members in trying to help make the world the place we want it to be [not hotter so the desert animals have more space or colder so the polar bears do. Humans are after all selfish.......] While I will read this thread there is nothing else I will post unless directly asked. Thanks in advance. |
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Post by leptraps on Oct 3, 2019 21:47:56 GMT -8
What, no snide remarks....
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Post by wingedwishes on Oct 4, 2019 4:14:05 GMT -8
That may have been meant for me Jan. We are both guilty of that I think. I get Leroy and his very unusual sensibilities.....Reminds me of Calvin and Hobbs somehow.
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