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Post by 58chevy on Aug 19, 2018 12:04:31 GMT -8
Which is larger, maynardi or appalachiensis? I've collected P glaucus glaucus that are only very slightly smaller than my maynardi specimens.
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Aug 19, 2018 13:18:53 GMT -8
Depending on rain fall over Florida, a wet winter, not warm not cold, just wet, will,produce extremely large Papilio glaucus Maynardi. There is a vague line in the southern half of Georgia where Papilio glaucus glaucus & Papilio glaucus Maynardi sort of blend. I have a short series that I collected near Cordele, GA. They are sort of in between glaucus and Maynardi. (What was I doing in Cordele, GA. My wife and on were on our way to Plains, GA to have a cold one with Billy before dropping in on Jimmy.)
And yes, I have cans of Billy Beer! I also collect Beer Bottles (and some cans) with the Beer in them. I do not drink nor do I like the taste of the stuff. It gives me gas. And, it is a major cause of NARF!!
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Post by mothman27 on Aug 19, 2018 13:55:33 GMT -8
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Post by eurytides on Aug 19, 2018 14:06:30 GMT -8
On the Toronto Entomologists Assoc website, there is a link to a review article on the occurrence of canadensis and glaucus in Ontario. They are 2 species. There are adult and larval differences and different host plant preferences. Canadensis is an obligate diapauser while glaucus is facultative.
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Post by trehopr1 on Aug 19, 2018 21:59:24 GMT -8
Well, I thought by now somebody from out West might of "chimed in" with some of those Western species (names) of swallowtails or even been daring enough to start mentioning subspecies. Is everybody from out that way too busy collecting to answer the other half of Tim's question? Come on fella's, I already answered half the question for Tim and even raised a few questions in the process!! Well Tim, I'll give this a shot and pass along that much of what I do know of the Western Papilionidae... Species: Papilio zelicaon (Anise Swallowtail), Papilio rutulus (Western Tiger Swallowtail), Papilio eurymedon (Pale Swallowtail), Papilio indra (Short-Tailed Swallowtail/Indra Swallowtail/Cliff Swallowtail) ie. common names abound on this species., Papilio multicaudata (Two-Tailed Swallowtail). So that's 5 of the long established species.
+1 Newly Appointed Species = Papilio rumiko (Western Giant Swallowtail)
+8 Stray Species (I know of from Texas and Arizona) = Papilio thoas (King Swallowtail/Thoas Swallowtail), Protographium philolaus (Dark Zebra Swallowtail/Dark Kite Swallowtail),Papilio ornythion (Ornythion Swallowtail), Papilio astyalus (Broad-Banded Swallowtail/Astyalus Swallowtail), Papilio pilumnus (Three-Tailed Swallowtail), Papilio rogeri (Pink-Spotted Swallowtail) ie. one Texas record from Rio Grande Valley., Papilio anchisiades (Ruby or Red Spotted Swallowtail), Parides eurimedes (Mylotes Cattleheart).
So far that brings us to 14 species from the Western states that I know or have heard of....
Now, there is an overlap of some previously mentioned Eastern species. But, I won't count them since they were already mentioned in the Eastern tally. Overlap species are: philenor, polydamas, marcellus, polyxenes, glaucus, troilus, and palamedes. (7)
I also know that their are presently 12 subspecies within the Papilio indra complex. Additionally, California hosts it's own subspecies of Papilio philenor (Pipevine Swallowtail).Papilio multicaudata has one subspecies present (that I know of in the U.S.)
Beyond this you will have to consult others "more in the know" than me. Maybe I have overlooked something or simply have not heard of it.
Between the 14 Western species which I have listed and the other 12 Eastern species which I noted earlier you now have (I think) a pretty solid number for North America's Papilionid species. Keep in mind that 3 of the Eastern species are strays and that another 7 of the Western species are strays; all of which are highly un-likely to be picked up by the greater breadth of us collectors. Still, they have all made a presence here (so they count) and that leaves even slim possibilities --- a possibility with time.
I have enjoyed this thread ! Trehopr1 signing off...
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Post by rayrard on Aug 19, 2018 22:36:03 GMT -8
I would consider S. Texas to be "Eastern" strays and S AZ "Western" strays given how range maps and field guides usually format the U.S.
There is the Short-tailed Swallowtail (P. brevicaudata) from NE Canada that hasn't been mentioned. Seems to be a good species by anyone's book.
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Post by rayrard on Aug 19, 2018 22:56:57 GMT -8
Western Native:
Papilio zelicaon Papilio machaon Papilio rutulus Papilio eurymedon Papilio indra Papilio multicaudata Papilio rumiko
TX/AZ Strays:
Papilio thoas Papilio ornythion Papilio astyalus Papilio pilumnus Papilio rogeri Papilio anchisiades Papilio victorinus Papilio garamas Mimoides phaon Parides alopius Eurytides philolaus
Eastern Native:
Papilio glaucus Papilio appalachiensis Papilio canadensis Papilio brevicaudatus Papilio polyxenes Papilio joanae Papilio troilus Papilio palamedes Papilio crephontes Eurytides marcellus Battus philenor Battus polydamas
FL Strays:
Papilio andraemon Papilio aristodemus Papilio androgeus Eurytides celadon
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Post by trehopr1 on Aug 19, 2018 23:57:10 GMT -8
Thank you for your input rayray. When I started to jump in head long into this thread I used the continental divide (Mississippi River) as my separation point between East And West. Just a personal choice; nothing carved in stone but, as you mention books probably tend to sort the divide as you mentioned.
Papilio brevicauda is a worthy mention and did come to mind however, because Tim specifically asked for the number of species and subspecies of Swallowtails in the USA; I went with that rather than include Canada. I also was not sure brevicauda was at all present in the Continental US.
I have some questions regarding your listing.
A.) Never read or heard of Papilio androgeus being picked up as a stray species in Florida. (Unless it arrived accidentally by ship).
B.) You list appalachiensis as a species and not a subspecies. (When was it raised to a full species)?
C.) I did not know their were populations of Papilio machaon in the Continental US. If not, you must be inferring the species is present in either Alaska or Canada. Neither of these are the continental US. Sorry, to be a "stickler". (Per Tim's question)
D.) Your Papilio victorinus was considered a subspecies of Papilio menatius but, is treated by some authors as a species. I did not know of this stray. (Make that #15) from out West.
E.) Never heard of Papilio garamas ever being taken in TX/AZ. (But, their are possibilities due to hurricanes).
F.) Never heard of Mimoides phaon ever being taken in TX/AZ. (Only as far as parts of East and South Mexico).
G.) Parides alopius has apparently once strayed into the US in Southeastern AZ. Did not know of this ! That makes it the 2nd Parides species having been found here. (Make that #16) from out West.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Aug 20, 2018 1:09:17 GMT -8
"C.) I did not know their were populations of Papilio machaon in the Continental US. If not, you must be inferring the species is present in either Alaska or Canada. Neither of these are the continental US. Sorry, to be a "stickler". (Per Tim's question)"
There are two subspecies of Papilio machaon in the western USA excluding Alaska and Canada, oregonia and bairdii.
Adam.
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Aug 20, 2018 3:54:43 GMT -8
I forgot about Papilio androgeus. It was collected in March of 1977 in Broward County, Florida by the late Authur Joe Patterson and reported in the very first Newsletter of the Southern Lepidopterist Society: Vol.1, No.1.
The late Irving Finkelstien collected several specimens about the same time in the same area. When I lived in south Florida in the late 1980's I searched for it in western Broward County and never found it. However, development took much of the habitat and now most of Broward County has been developed. The chances of finding it are extremely thin to none.
The known host plant for Papilio androgeus is Citrus and all of the known specimens were collected in old abandoned Citrus groves in western Broward County. Residential development took all of those Citrus groves.
How long was it a resident, no one will ever know. And they (Watchers) blame the nets of collectors for the decline in butterflies in South Florida. Bulldozer blades do a far better job.
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Post by mothman27 on Aug 20, 2018 5:16:09 GMT -8
Thanks for all the replies. Hopefully I did not cause you to do too much research as I was aware of I think all the species mentioned, except some strays. I am still curious if I have missed some obscure subspecies. I recently found there were subspecies such as P. machaon bairdii, Papilio troilus fakahatcheensis, Battus philenor hirsuta and Papilio glaucus maynardi. Can anyone post a photo of a dark form female maynardi? Has Papilio brevicaudata never been found in Maine? To answer some questions (with photos) -Yes, P. machaon occurs in the USA Here is my recently acquired pair of ssp. oregonius from Oregon. -I think maynardi is larger than appalachiensis. My female maynardi rivals female cresphontes! Just off the board Apparently appalachiensis was described in 2002 by Pavulaan & D. Wright.
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Aug 20, 2018 7:00:01 GMT -8
Papilio troilus fakahatcheenes is a bit if a stretch. However, this species occurs over most of Florida and up into Southern Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi. I have never seen or found it in the Keys.
As for the size, it is larger than anything up north.
The larva are identical.
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Post by 58chevy on Aug 20, 2018 7:12:12 GMT -8
Does multicaudata get bigger than maynardi?
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mikeh
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Post by mikeh on Aug 20, 2018 10:01:02 GMT -8
A Papilio caiguanabus stray has also recently been reported from Florida.
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Post by trehopr1 on Aug 20, 2018 10:55:59 GMT -8
Thank you Adam for your input on those 2 machaon subspecies ! As I am a collector in the Eastern half of the US I have only had occasion once to travel past the Continental divide and that was not to collect. So, I was unaware of these 2 subspecies. (That makes machaon species #17 on the Western species count).
Thank you Leptraps for your input on Papilio androgeus ! Fascinating.... Seems it must have arrived via some strong hurricane or perhaps as a stowaway on some ship. It was at least a temporary colonist for a few short years (perhaps). Pity that development likely led to it's demise. (This one is species #13 for the Eastern half of the US in case anyone besides me is counting).
Tim, maynardi is our largest Tiger subspecies unequivocally. Bar none. As to whether it is still larger than cresphontes is a point of conjecture. You see, in all fairness you have to 1st compare Floridian maynardi to Floridian cresphontes. I have collected cresphontes for example here in Illinois and yet those from Florida still come in (on average ) slightly larger than those found in other states (as regards the females). A friend of mine has about a dozen Floridian cresphontes in his collection which he personally caught and 3 of the females are unquestionably larger than any I have collected ! You would probably have to look at a long series of Floridian maynardi and cresphontes for a more definitive answer. That would mean either a visit to the Mcquire center or a look at some personal collection with strong holdings of both. In my humble opinion, I believe (given the general wing shape of each); maynardi has the broader wing "area" of the two whilst cresphontes probably only squeaks by with the larger wing "expanse" if only by 4 or 5 mm total (for the largest out-sized females).
58chevy, I do know that multicaudata of the subspecies grandiosus which comes from Southern Mexico and Guatemala are easily larger than maynardi (particularly females). As for the subspecies present here (pusillus) and in Northern Mexico; that is a good question. I have seen a couple very sizable female multicaudata from the US but, again one would probably have to look at a long series for a definitive answer. Multicaudata is after all the Western states largest species. I leave it at that.
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