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Post by beetlehorn on Mar 8, 2017 17:13:42 GMT -8
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Post by beetlehorn on Mar 8, 2017 17:28:01 GMT -8
After checking a few other drawers I saw that I had a few more I would like to share in addition to the ones posted above. The first series is a group of Catocala micronympha, the Little Bride Underwing. Here are forms "hero", "jaquenetta", and "gisela". Next a series of Catocala ultronia, the Plum Tree Underwing. Here are Forms "mopsa", "celia" and typical variations. The third series shows some variations of Catocala nebulosa, the Clouded Underwing. Some are dark reddish brown, others are more of an ocre/yellow, and some have a greenish sheen on the wings. Finally a series of Catocala innubens, The Betrothed. Here are a few variations such as Form "hinda", and Form "scintillans".     |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 17:25:22 GMT -8
Love these.......thanks for sharing.
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Post by rayrard on Mar 9, 2017 19:23:53 GMT -8
Fun thread! First are variations in Catocala cerogama from normal pattern to the melanic form and an in-between. Second are variations in Catocala palaeogama, including the form "phalanga", one with a very black hindwing, and variations in the FW mottling. I find this to be the most variable Catocala, and I guess C. lacrymosa would share much of this variability. Third are my personal variations of Catocala ilia, which is close second in individual variation. The upper right is typical of the area with "conspicua" being rare in the north. I also have a very dark "satanas" form. I don't know if Catocala umbrosa masquarades as ilia in many collections. I have variations on micronympha and innubens but they are the same as beetlehorn's. I don't have the striking forms of connubialis is anyone has some to share. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 21:17:22 GMT -8
Cool idea Tom. Here r a few.... Catocala paleogama......top......maybe a dark form annida ............... middle..........form phalanga ......bottom.....form annida  Catocala ilia.............top.........form osculata .........................second from top.........form normani ........third from top..........form conspicua ..............forth from top.........form satanas ....fifth from top........form confusa....( I think ) ....bottom....... ?,............but cool looking  Catocala cerogama........top.......reg. .......middle.......I think a B specimen of form ruperti ................bottom........ form bunkeri  Catocala nebulosa.......variations of  |
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Post by rayrard on Mar 9, 2017 23:06:44 GMT -8
I assume I have a much fresher form of the "ruperti" form of cerogama?
And is my dark ilia on top left with the white reniform ring the "normani" form?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 7:39:34 GMT -8
Yes.....you have a fresher ruperti than I........wanna trade?......jk.
Yes...in my opinion.....that is form normani at the upper left. I, myself, find weaker marked conspicua to be a slight challenge in that....where does conspicua end and normani begin? My take on normani is that they have a very dark FW with an outline of a spot. If the white spot is at all filled in, it may be a weaker form of conspicua. Just my thoughts. I may post pics of the issue mentioned.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 8:01:30 GMT -8
Ok, here is what I'm talking about..... In my humble opinion......( top being 1st and bottom being 7th )......top four are conspicua with the fourth being extremely weak. Number four may not even be conspicua......tough call since the spot does not really stand out much. The fifth and sixth are normani and the seventh is satanas. Only the outline of a white spot with darkness in the middle is normani as I believe it to be. Once again, this is only my take on this and I'm sure open to differing opinions......I don't have a PhD in "catocalalogy".   |
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Post by oehlkew on Mar 10, 2017 18:14:36 GMT -8
Amazing there are so many forms. I was told that DNA sequencing is not so useful in determining Catocala. Still remember as a boy chasing ilia from tree to tree with a butterfly net in New Jersey; still remember the great hordes that would nectar at the frothing sap at the base of a big oak tree, still remember the first time I overwintered eggs, and they hatched; real scooters as they inched along. Flimsy cocoons were also a surprise. Wish I was younger. Glad the Saturniidae don't move so fast.
Bill Oehlke
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Post by rayrard on Mar 10, 2017 21:17:52 GMT -8
Ok, here is what I'm talking about..... In my humble opinion......( top being 1st and bottom being 7th )......top four are conspicua with the fourth being extremely weak. Number four may not even be conspicua......tough call since the spot does not really stand out much. The fifth and sixth are normani and the seventh is satanas. Only the outline of a white spot with darkness in the middle is normani as I believe it to be. Once again, this is only my take on this and I'm sure open to differing opinions......I don't have a PhD in "catocalalogy". View AttachmentI always thought conspicua was all-white filled. Many typical patterned ilia around here have the white ring but the lighter FW mottling makes it not obvious. Do you have C. umbrosa? I don't know how you separate that from dark ilia. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 22:48:27 GMT -8
I do have C. umbrosa and, as a matter of fact, discussed this very issue with Vernon Brou in person last week who discovered/had it elevated to a species in 2002. In a nutshell, as I understood him, umbrosa has FWs with no ascertainable patterning, but not a solid dark gray or black coloring. My umbrosas, and I'll try to post a pic later tomorrow, have a faint busyness in the FW (sort of drab woody like), but not the patterning of ilia. Most of my umbrosas also have a slightly reduced teardrop of pink near the anal fold where ilia tends to have a distinct drastic downward teardrop of pink. Once one sees them, compared to ilia, telling them apart can be done. Here is a link for your reference...... www.silkmoths.bizland.com/Catocala/catumbrosa.htm |
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Post by beetlehorn on Mar 11, 2017 14:13:33 GMT -8
Going through my collection I found a few specimens I collected in the last couple of years that I thought were different from Catocala ilia. The larger specimen in the top right corner is undoubtedly Catocala ilia. The one on the left still has me somewhat baffled, but the two bottom specimens are in my opinion definately Catocala umbrosa. In fact the bottom right specimen is almost an exact duplicate of the topotype pictured in the link that Bill Garthe posted. In the second photo I have included some variations of Catocala connubialis. Some of my specimens may not be perfect but I try to collect for diversity and scientific interest first of all. Oh, and by the way Bill.....if PhD's for Catocalology were given out, you would be at the top of the list in my opinion. Tom   |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2017 17:14:12 GMT -8
Yes......in my opinion, the bottom two are C. umbrosa. I'd suggest u send pics to Vernon for confirmation. Oh....and thanks.
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Post by rayrard on Mar 11, 2017 20:26:36 GMT -8
Is umbrosa sympatric with ilia?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2017 21:05:09 GMT -8
As I understand it, there are people who have noted flight season patterns where one is before the other in the same ecosystem. I, however, have found them to be indeed sympatric and I've caught them in several states on the wing with ilia. I am not the authority on this, but speak from my experience on this more than from papers on the topic. Again, Vernon Brou has extensive experience with these and I'd suggest you contact him.
Respectfully, Bill
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