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Post by vabrou on Dec 20, 2015 7:40:46 GMT -8
Let me clarify my statement about Carocala euphemia Beutenmüller, 1907. I don't believe my subnata looking Catocala is that species, quite probably it is something still altogether different. I only have a single pair of this obviously distinct moth. You will note it's small size. I have posted it again here.
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Post by boghaunter1 on Dec 20, 2015 10:14:41 GMT -8
Hey Coloradeo,
A recommended, older interesting book on N. Am. Catocala that almost every collector will eventually run across is "Legion of Night The Underwing Moths" by Theodore D. Sargent published in 1976. It should still be available (but pricey perhaps) at used booksellers on the net. It contains a wealth of information on the N. Am. Catocala, colored plates (not great colors though)* descriptions of different fms, etc.; best part of the book are the chapters on sugar baiting, light trapping, aberrant specimens, rearing Catocala, experiments on coloration & warning displays. It is a fascinating book, at least to this long time amateur collector (wannabe xpurt).
John K.
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Post by vabrou on Dec 20, 2015 10:33:30 GMT -8
John, I bought Sargent's book new when it was published in 76. He knew nothing about Catocala taxonomy. He was an ornithologist, and became interested in Catocala because birds were common predators upon the moths, and one could capture lots of Catocala with bird beak inpressions upon the wings. With he help of several knowledgeable individuals the book was written. It lacks information on numerous eastern US species, especially in the southeast US. e.g. I had discovered 8 new species of Catocala collected in Louisiana back around 1980, just 5-6 years after his book was published. It is quite out of date with what we know about Catocala in the US today. An older interesting book on N. Am. Catocala is this one, which I also have. It has more useful information than Sargent's publication.
Barnes, W.M. and J. McDunnough 1918. Illustrations of the North American species of the genus Catocala. Mem. Am. Mus. Nat. Hist. New Series, Vol. III, part 1.
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Post by boghaunter1 on Dec 20, 2015 11:45:54 GMT -8
Hey Brou,
I simply recommended a book WHICH I PERSONALLY found very interesting... nothing more, nothing less... I am allowed to do that on this site you know. I also bought the book brand new in 1976... Just because you disagree & IMMEDIATELY recommended an even older & very difficult to obtain publication is your perrogative... neither my recommendation nor yours has less merit/importance... I'm getting a little tired of this condescending attitude/tone you seem to have towards other amateur collectors. You appear, from your indifferent comments, to be an arrogant, self proclaimed expurt on anything to do with lights, light traps & Catocala moths & regard all others opinions/accomplishments as complete wastes of time. I would much rather take Leroy K's advice anytime as his opinions are based on modern up to date info not 1950-60's obscure hard to find data. This site is made up of probably 90-95% amateurs with a few professionals thrown in who are very helpful... take a few lessons in humility & class from a true expert like Adam Snow who goes out of his way to help all other long time & green newbie collectors alike. We need a lot more experts on different orders, like Adam, & a lot less obsessive/fanatical/egotistical collectors, who believe they are the last & final word on EVERYTHING to do with lights & moths. Also insulting amateur photographers (for being amateurs & getting some ids wrong) at the N. Am. MPG site, many who have also spend decades photographing/studying really does a lot of good... NOT! Bill Garth & I have together over 80 yrs. collecting experience at lights & it only took me about a half dozen attempts (not 400!) to get my light traps right. How difficult can it be to construct a light trap with a light, baffles (or not) & a bucket. Re-inventing the wheel is ridiculous. You can stick to your 53 ft. high x-mas tree lights, 2000+ watt handy/dandy FIELD? contraptions & I will stick with my PRACTICAL & EFFECTIVE wee little 18" BLs.
John K. .... one of nearly 2000 lowly amateurs (aka wannabee amateur cooks)... by the way where is your PHd?
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Post by vabrou on Dec 20, 2015 14:37:34 GMT -8
John, My statements apparently went in one ear and out the other in your case. "neither my opinion nor yours has less merit/importance" so what is your real problem John. Apparently you have something else altogether bothering you. I was pointing out that opening a 20 chapter book and starting to read it beginning on chapter 15 leaves the reader with nothing to base the last 5 chapter upon. I can have an educated opinion too, rather than fool's opinions, those who have not done the fundamental research. You could learn greatly from the research done by the early UV light and insect trap pioneers. Their findings are just as relevant and valuable today as they were 100 years ago or 50 years ago. Your statements discounting these publications is a very real example of why apparently you don't really understand this subject. You apparently want to go through life totally blind, destined to repeat all the errors that others in the past have documented upon.
There are numerous taxonomical errors in Sargent's book, not my unsubstantiated opinion, but a known fact for over 35 years. There are numerous errors on MPG website, not my unsubstantiated opinion, just fact. N.B. Bob Patterson requested me to help him begin his website with images and taxonomical opinions and species lists relative to what species should be placed there.
"towards other amateur collectors" first, and paramount John, I don't consider myself to be an amateur collector. I have personally operated light traps for over 40 million trap hours to date. I have been visited by entomologist throughout the world for over 40 years. Why because my traps and the results they obtained were unheard of before that, just fact. I'm sorry to have burst your balloon. Reading your comments here is very revealing at your obvious disdain.
Did Bill Garth approve your use of his name criticizing me. I doubt it. I have not reinvented the wheel buddy, I have improved upon it and am the only person to invent workable collecting chambers on all of my various traps, a highly integral part of the traps I have designed and successfully used for 46 years.
No, it didn't take me 400 attempts, I have 400+ insect traps. Have you ever run a light trap 53' above the ground. Do you know what results from doing so ? I have read the published literature and have done comparable studies about these things myself. Apparently, John, in your mind, I stole your thunder. And BTW, I do have two degrees, but neither are a PhD. And BTW it's PhD, not PHd. Apparently you don't have one of those degrees either.
Don't like what I say, just ignore me. I won't be offended in the slightest. Why make a public spectacle of yourself ? Opinions are like ASSHOLES, everyone has one.
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Post by rayrard on Dec 20, 2015 17:46:55 GMT -8
It's hard to argue that MPG is anywhere near perfect, but it is a heck of a lot better than the Moth Book, Covell, or that mediocre NE Moths book that is useless for anything more than the most common species. I think MPG has improved greatly in both ID's and other information, with the range maps being very useful. I have seen some horrible errors, including a Catocala cara on the page for a completely unrelated species, but it is good information that usually is based on actual collection data.
The problem with the range maps is the ones with random outliers that are often thousands of miles from the heart of the species range. Are these valid records, introductions, or misidentifications?
It is also interesting how putting lights high up can result in big Catocala hauls. I put a bucket trap up in a "bell tower" at about 2-3 stories high in the CT mountains and got a very full bucket of Catocala. The ground level sheets got occasional but steady action but the ground bucket traps had no Catocala. I spoke with Dave Wagner and he seems to think that night (warm and foggy) was a potential migration of Catocala of many species and the high bucket was able to sample from that movement. The effect of light heigh on collection haul is interesting to study.
As to subnata, the subnata from up north are a bit larger than neogama but are very pale like the one Vernon posted from the upper right. Since umbrosa has been shown to clearly distinct from ilia, maybe we need some rearing of these southern subnata to see what is going on there.
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Post by vabrou on Dec 20, 2015 18:25:03 GMT -8
Rayrand,
Running traps at greater heights can be a difficult thing to assess. This is due to lower growth vegetation vs the larger trees and the types and species of trees. e.g. I have operated single collection chambers with multiple light traps at different heights. This way I am getting the tree top flying species (e.g. Sphingids) and at the same time the ground hugging species in the same trap chamber. There are also certain species, e.g. microleps, pyralids, geometrids that fly about primarily near the ground, so if you want those specimens you must have your traps operating near the ground.
Want to collect lots of beetles, use only fluorescent BL and BLB. Want tons of Catocala, use high wattage MV lamps or fermenting fruit bait traps.
Regarding ilia vs umbrosa, the peak of their flight periods differ here in Louisiana at about a 10 day difference. But, apparently none of the Catocala experts over 150 years ever looked at the genitalia of these two entities, as they are totally distinct. Same for another Catocala I described, Catocala atocala, no one ever looked at the genitalia of this one and compared it to the genitalia of Catocala agrippina to which it was synonymized with. There is a nice image of atocala in Barnes, W.M. and J. McDunnough 1918, but it was treated as agrippina. and atocala is illustrated as a drawing in Sargen't Legion of Night, though he did not treat it or include it as a valid species.
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leptraps
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Posts: 2,397
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Post by leptraps on Dec 21, 2015 18:16:01 GMT -8
Leptraps will discontinue making Bait Traps with Gray, Nylon Coat Fiberglass Screen. As a result I have 16 Flat Bottom Bait Traps with Nylon Coated Fiberglass Screen that I will sell at $89.00 each. Also, I can convert them to a Slotted Pan Type for $119.00. First come first serve. The link to the Article below should be considered as required reading for anyone with an interest in Catocala moths. The information is excellent and will help anyone with an interest in Catocala moths, whether it is collecting, trapping, rearing, baiting or lighting for Catocala moths. www.lepidopterabiodiversity.com/SurveyMethods.htmAs for the “H” Type Bait Trap, Leptraps will be offering them as a “Slotted Pan Type” Bait Traps with Dura Life Lumite Screen. This design will collect Catocala moths and is almost escape proof. They are not on my Website www.Leptraps.com. However, they will be after the first of the year. If you are interested, send me a PM.
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Post by boghaunter1 on Dec 21, 2015 20:29:39 GMT -8
Good Evening yet again Mr. Brou:
Still dishing me ?... Nice Guy... really professional. In your last post you exhibited a pretty imaginitive tirade yourself... using an abundance of new, "monumental" $25.00 words... to smear me as a mental case??... still out to impress as usual... not surprising. Must have struck a few nerves eh? Since you are now into lecturing me like a truant 10 yr. old school boy instead of a fellow experienced collector here is another new word for you to learn - HUBRIS - definition: excessive/exaggerated pride, excessive self-confidence, arrogance, conceit, self importance, egotism, pomposity, lack of humility; an overestimation of one's own competence, accomplishments or capabilities.
"To what end are your pernicious (damaging?...give me a break! If you can dish it out so can I!) criticisms?"...you ask. That's easy to answer... simple... a little R-E-S-P-E-C-T, patience, understanding & tolerance for a fellow collector & his opinions. I have gone over my initial comments in the BL vs BLB thread & can't honestly see anything wrong with what I recommended from my yrs. of light trapping experience. I even put in a disclaimer "PLEASE NOTE... MY PERSONAL THOUGHTS ONLY....each to his own (opinions). My comment about x-mas tree light light setups was made tongue in cheek as it is the season. B. Garth explained his apparatus & it made sense to me & he wasn't offended & said as much.
In the interim, in the Catocala thread, Brou twice referred to amateurs as "wannabe xpurts & then, re: MPG mistakes... more cynical comments "Why, because there are too many wannabee x-purts placing images on the site, in other words, too many beginner cooks in the kitchen." It was at this time that I began thinking to myself "What kind of expert is this who is always so negative/cynical on other amateur collectors/photographers... surely not the behaviour of a professional. I referred to Brou, at that time, as an obssessive/fanatical/egotisical collector (even Brou, himself, admitted just recently in these threads that his own friends refer to his collecting efforts as being fanatical). Go Figure? Next Coloradeo asked, in the excessive specimens thread, for a book recommendation on N. Am. Catocala. I replied with Sargent's "Legion of the Night..." to which I was surprised to see, within mere minutes, Brou dishing my book & recommending his own. That is when I started getting really angry... you can surely recommend your own book, but let Coloradeo make up his own mind... as well my point of finding a copy of Sargent's 1976 book was, & still is, a helluva lot more realistic than finding the 1918 Barnes & McDunnough publication. I was particularily peaved over this Sargent book because I have never, on this site, had a book recommendation rebuked by a (self proclaimed) expert. I have always had good comments on my recommendations. This book is special to me because it inspired me to take up serious moth (Catocala) collecting when I was 16 yrs. old.... worked for me. To have it dished & completely dismissed truly angered me. I also reminded Brou of another worldwide swallowtail EXPERT we had on this site who was always so extremely helpful to amateurs & experienced collectors alike, without discriminating... I think that really ticked him off... explaining to Brou how a real professional should behave. Not a single word of smartass comeback on that one.
At this time I also decided to test Brou to see just how serious & unbending he really was... with tongue in cheek, I asked him how come it took him 400 attempts to make the perfect trap when it only took me 6!... next, you guessed it... ### storm... no sense of humor at all... he is so full of himself & sooooo serious he never even realized I was joking him! Lighten up & get a sense of humor.
After he brought up the fact that my words,"neither my opinion nor yours has less merit/importance" (regarding the book chioces).. meaning both of our book picks had equal merit he tells me "I can have an educated opinion too, rather than fool's opinions". Again this time I'm a fool now as well because he was still dishing my book choice. He then goes on to lecture me on the history (boring & nothing to do with modern day UV bulbs). Again he dishes me for not being truly interested & says, "Your statements discounting these publications (old 1950-60 military studies) is an example of why you don't really understand this subject"... another slap in my face.... I've also been collecting for 40 yrs., only on a "normal" scale vs on a commercial/factory/fanatical scale & have numerous new moth, beetle & even ode records for SK & even CANADA. Who in the hell does he think he is?? Brou continues "You apparently want to go through life totally blind, destined to repeat all the errors that others in the past have made... So at this point I am a wannabe xpurt (twice), my book recommendations are a fool's opinions & I am totally blind.... these personal pernicious insults are starting to add up!
Brou says "I don't consider myself to be an amateur collector" So what exactly do you consider yourself Mr.Brou??... I'm dying to finally know..... a professional what exactly? & what are your degrees in? Remember Sargent was an ornithologist & he wrote a GREAT Catocala book IMHO. Holland was a minister & also wrote a "monumental" couple of bug book(s)
Brou continues, blah, blah, blah about his light traps & then dishes me again as I had asked him if he had a PHd/... a legitimate question... Reply "and BTW, I have two degrees, but neither a PhD.... he continues with another smartass reply...it's Phd, not PHd. I had accidentily capitalized the wrong letter in my hurry typing! I'm so sorry Brou for my huge grammatical mistake ...you thought I did it on purpose? How petty can this character get? He goes even further, Apparently you don't have one of those either. Nope no PhD, nothing to prove...only a measly 2 yr. Diploma in Agriculture (I'm a retired grain farmer)... Are you going to call me a dumb farmer now?...poorly educated?? I even took 3 insect courses at the U of S.... enough to make me a real x-purt too eh? & Finally, to really pour salt in my wounds he ends with "Opinions are like ASSHOLES, everyone has one. So what exactly does that mean Brou ?? reading between the lines, you just called me an ASSHOLE!... or at the least inferred it because.....yes. yes remember the very start of this long post... you suffer from extreme HUBRIS.... & it is sadly... incurable.
John K.
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Post by joee30 on Dec 21, 2015 20:57:31 GMT -8
Boghaunter,
In a certain retrospect, Vabrou is right. And it's not just in the MPG site. BugGuide has some stuck up photographer types. I bet even the Facebook ento groups have their share of people who go on them, and snub the amateurs with their "knowledge". I had some guy on bug guide call me a worthless amateur for a couple of pics of an indra swallowtail, and a couple of beetles I took on my phone, and shared them there. Now, I have worked and been around many entomologist, some known like Chuck Bellamy, Thomas Emmel, Roy Snelling, and Frank Hovore. I worked at the L.A. Natural History Museum under Brent Karner. Lol I have done this for so long, but I am not an expert, as I am still learning. Being in Nevada, it's a whole new world of bugs here.
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Post by joee30 on Dec 21, 2015 21:00:34 GMT -8
As for errors, many insect sites have em. Heck, some of the USDA records are messed up on their sites for Dragonflies and Moths. It happens though, but in a site like MPG, you want to be more accurate in the species page, than having just a bunch of pics of something that is similar looking, instead of the actual specimen you are looking at.
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Post by joee30 on Dec 21, 2015 21:35:51 GMT -8
One last thing, even though I worked with entomology and insect/arthropod husbandry, I haven't gotten a college degree. Heck, I took some classes, got fed up with a relationship I was in, and joined the military at age 27. Now, I work with an entomologist at the University of Nevada -Reno, and at a Petco part time, and am taking my general ed at Truckee Meadows Community College. The kids at UNR and the people I work with get awe struck when I start spitting Genus and species on many of the insects we work with, especially the material from a pre and post burn collecting they do at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. I just tell them I know many things, but, I'm not an expert, as I'm still learning as well.
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Post by vabrou on Dec 22, 2015 0:08:33 GMT -8
Normal Catocala muliercula and two quite unusual aberrations, all captured at the same location. Every ten years or so, in my area, we experience huge outbreaks of this species where I can take 30,000+ specimens of muliercula in the month of June alone. While most other years only a few dozen adults are taken. One of the frustrating problems particularly encountered with this species is that 90% of the wings on adults are worn, torn, or chipped. I suspect that this problem is caused due to the moths navigating through thick low vegetation. The larval foodplant for this species is very abundant over much of the state of Louisiana.
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Post by beetlehorn on Dec 22, 2015 3:51:58 GMT -8
After several years of collecting Catocalas, one thing I have discovered is that they can be frustrating to identify positively at times. Probably more so than any other group of leps. The C. neogama/subnata species is an example. There are so many different forms and variations of several species that oftentimes even very experienced naturalists are left scratching their heads. Opinions differ amongst collectors as to what a certain moth actually is to the point of such frustration of heated arguments and debate. Then we go to books and oftentimes there seems to be a conflict of information from one to the other. Tempers flare and emotions start to build up at times. Who is right? So we are left with a rather foggy, inconclusive idea of what we have, not to mention the hard feelings towards one another. We as a species like to put everything into neat little boxes so to speak, so that anything we study should follow certain taxonomic rules, but we are dealing with subjects of the natural world that constantly change due to species diversity/variation/adaptation. Just look at how many different forms and subspecies there are in entomology alone! Lets remember that taxonomy is an idea we invented as humans. Nature doesn't have to follow our rules and guidelines, no matter how much we quibble about one another's opinions. Science is full of new discoveries, and oftentimes we find out that the amateur was correct after all. So who is the true "expert"? Yet another idea we fabricated as a species that is based upon our limited knowledge. Tom
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Post by coloradeo on Dec 22, 2015 15:36:00 GMT -8
I was able to find a copy of Legion of the Night through library loan. Delighted to check it out and see if it's worth a purchase down the road. I'll see if I can find the earlier work mentioned by Vabrou as well. These Catocala are tricky for me to identify and my collection base of comparison is relatively small, making it tricky to compare to "live specimens". Thanks for the suggestions.
Eric
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