charaxes murphyi M+F

[panzerman]

male+ female form


John

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[africaone]

Charaxes murphyi has been prooved now (via the bracode) to be a natural hybrid between cithaeron and tiridates ! The reason why so much forms are known and why each specimen is different.
Thierry

[norton]

I thought that you would have been able to figure this out without DNA testing. It's a barcode by the way not a "bracode"

[africaone]

yes barcode of course.
quite unfair to say that today as it is easy to say after knowing the results.
None female that looks like cithaeron were caught at this time (and it is not yet published), cithaeron has never been caught in Katanga (and then the occurence of the 2 sp in the same locality has never been recorded for these two sp, all the two are at the extreme of their territories), the two mother species are quite distinct and nobody believed that they can give a viable hybrid (it is known by a very large natural population).
I hunted myself murphyi (nearly all the specimens coming from Katanga are from my huntings including the pair here shown).
Thierry

[norton]

The opinion that Charaxes murphyi was not a valid species was presented to you and others maybe 15 or more years ago so is not with hindsight - it was quite obvious what the situation was.
It seems that commercial interests influenced you in not accepting this hypothesis.

Just because Charaxes cithaeron has never been collected in Katanga does not mean that it does not occur there. It has been collected rarely on the border in Zambia at the type locality along the South Mutundu Stream.

When you talk about a viable natural population do you mean that the hybrids are able to produce fertile offspring. Have you bred this species and if not how do you prove that the natural population is viable?

[africaone]

If cithaeron occurs in the locality where murphyi occurs in Katanga It had been caught even uncommon ! Charaxes collecting is not so due to random.
About the commercial allusion , let me laugh ! and thanks ... it is good for health !
1- I am not the author of the species,
2-in my paper on murphyi, I was explicit that I believed murphyi to be an extreme variation of tiridates (don't forget that at this time the female like cithaeron was not yet known) ... not the best way to make money I think ! I have no problem to recognise the truth revealed by barcode, that is the first impartial argument. Yes, I really paid attention to the hypothesis that it may be a true sp as other hypothesis without evidence to proove one of them.
3- now with the barcode results many things can be explained and of course that one of the numerous hypothesis is the correct one (as all possible hypothesis were proposed !!). Even the hybrid hypothesis is the rifght one, it was not seriously argumented (today, cithaeron in katanga is not yet known !)
4- Even with barcode evidence, some Charaxes collector doesn't yet believe it is an hybrid !
Charaxes murphyi form a very large natural population and years of collecting provided many strange forms including some that doesn't exist in the 2 mother sp. Some works needs to be done as to compare different populations and their phenotypes. it seems that the situation is not the same in the actual two known localities (Mufulira and Kibomboma).
Thierry

[africaone]

some more to bring !!

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[norton]

Yes I am sure you are laughing, all the way to the .....
When specimens of "murphyi", that are indistinguishable from tiridates, are sold for high prices, the difference in price is more 100X then there is a financial incentive to keep the myth of Charaxes murphyi as a good species going on as long as possible. Collectors who have paid good money to get this "species" in their collection, only find out that the vendors knew they were hybrids all along would not be happy!

You seem very sure of yourself that if Charaxes cithaeron occurs in Shaba that you would have caught it. I can think of numerous cases where localities that have been well collected turn up with the unexpected. Charaxes jolybouyeri is a good example. If you do not know it, many organisms when dispersing, migrating or mating do not feed. This could be the case with cithaeron in Shaba.
Therefore thought by you to not occur there. How do you account for the hybrids then?

You dodged the question about the viable population: you have said it is viable and you have been asked if you have bred the taxon and whether the hybrids are fertile. Simple question that needs a simple answer. If you have not bred it then how can you be so dogmatic and call the population viable?

[africaone]

- the population is viable because it is present for many years (at least 30 years) and in good quantity (murphyi is not uncommon in Kibomboma)! I don't understand why you insist about breeding for to know that it is viable. In which way breeding will give a better information about the viability of the population !
- about cithaeron in Katanga, many years of collecting in the same locality seem for me a good reason to suppose that cithaeron doesn't occur in the locality where murphyi occur. It is probable that the sp occur more southern in the "botte de Sakania", but none is yet known. In such biotope (miombo + gallery forest), 1-2 years of intensive collecting provide quite nearly all the sp that occur in a locality (that is not the case with the rain forest where fournierae and allied occurs, the comparison is not right)
- about the "hybrid" hypothesis, it seems that the Katanga provide tiridates via his gallery forest and Zambia provides joanae. The presence of the cithaeron gene in Katanga is probably due to a "capillarity gene flow action " coming from Zambia and the zone of joanae where the hybrydation took place for the first time and probably from where cithaeron genes are injected in the process. This hypothesis is reinforced by the fact that genitalia in Katanga examplars is more like tiridates and in zambia much more mixed (tiridates cithaeron) with a better ratio for cithaeron. No necessar that cithaeron sensu stricto occurs in Kibomboma for the presence of the hybrid. It is also supposed that gene ratio fluctuates with time and locality.
One may suppose with a part of science fiction that if a good part of the "murphyi population" become isolated for some time, a selection gene will occur and stabilise the genotype (including genitalia that is different in the two mother sp). And finally provide a new sp (after a lot of time of course). murphyi is probably not alone (see harrisoni, etesipe/penricei complex, matakall, etc, ..).
Thierry
ps : english is not my language and it is quite difficult to defend a such POV that requires nuance and language subtility which are not possible in english for me.

[jeanff]

Thierry,

Ne t'en fais pas trop avec ton niveau de maîtrise de l'anglais, tout autre interlocuteur ayant une attitude aussi négative que ce mec donnerait bien du fil à retordre à n'importe qui, peu importe la langue. Nul n'est tenu de se défendre de ce dont il n'est point coupable. Certains s'acharnent, c'est à n'y rien comprendre... Sinon très intéressant ce que tu racontes au sujet de cet hybride

Jean-Philippe

[wollastoni]

Surtout qu'il pourrait se présenter au moins.

PS : c'est sympa Insectnet en français

[africaone]

merci les gars !

[jeanff]

Hmmm, we have to be careful so we won't be smitten as the French Connection Je crois que ce forum est assez grand pour tous, si le respect mutuel des différences qui nous colorent est de la partie...

Meaning, I think this place is big enough for everyone, as long as mutual respect for people's differences is present. Let us not assume, judge, ostracize, or so be ostracized ourselves.

Jean-Philippe

[panzerman]

Probably many "new" species are the result of hybridization. Look at papilio herringi, it is recognized as a full species, same probably for eurytides oberthueri, papilio diazi, papilio judicael. Papilio zagreus motilones maybe a hybrid of ascolius ascolius
X zagreus zagreus? Just as in dogs, the "King of Dogs" the Rottweiler is a cross between a Newfoundland and a Mastiff circa 30,000BC!

John

[Deleted]

Are norton and thanos the same person?