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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 9:27:46 GMT -8
That would make sense of their reluctance,on a similar note I was sat with a friend at the back of his table at the Newark fair, taking a rest for half an hour, he told me that soon a man would come up and buy a job lot of cheap moths and not even look at what he was buying,just shove them quickly into his storebox. This seemed strange to me so I asked why he would do such a thing, the answer alarmed me, because the specimens of moths were old,the pins on them were also old, in this case up to 100 years, he would destroy the moths and keep the pins and set foreign maculinea arion on the old pins and pass them off as the extinct British sub species,totaly unacceptable.
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Post by wollastoni on Jun 30, 2013 9:28:46 GMT -8
Very sad story... Those people are like grave looters...
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Post by jonathan on Jun 30, 2013 11:01:58 GMT -8
When I visited the BMNH 2 years ago, I was not allowed to take inside any storage containers, not even a bottle of water and I fully agree with this policy. If I don't take food/drink in my study where I have my personal collection, why should others allow me in such a priceless place? I also agree that if someone wants to compare specimens, as I personally did, one is free to take photos of the specimens and can compare them at home. But stealing butterflies is completely unacceptable and anyone caught handling/buying/trading in such specimens should be prosecuted to the full extent of the laws.
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Post by jshuey on Jul 1, 2013 5:21:07 GMT -8
I've just returned from The Lepidopterists' Society's Annual Meeting where I met Dr. Huertas. During her presentation, she made it clear that the collection was available to visitors, but that they would like a couple of months advance notice of your visit. The collection is overwhelming and still unsettled following the recent move.
She also spoke about their ongoing efforts to re-curate the collection. She gave details about the Riodinidae, which were scattered among over 2,000 drawers and several collections -various historical collections and lots of "pro tem" drawers, along with the main holdings that were last curated in the 1940's. I think the newly curated collection occupied over 700 drawers and for the first time, the 75,000 specimens are fully curated such that you can find all the museum's holdings for all species.
She also mentioned that the used volunteers to do much of this work and that they are trying to work through all the families. So if it would seem like there is an opportunity for you Brits to contribute if you live close enough that you can devote the consistent time they need to help with ongoing projects. I don't think they are interesting in casual help - but consistent weekly help would probably get you access to the collection.
Shuey
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Post by kingha on Jul 11, 2013 9:21:22 GMT -8
sorry to hear of your experience, I know it wasn't always like that. It may have to do with the person in charge at the time. hear is a paper I wrote some time back and had printed in the Michigan Entomology News Letter about my experience back in the 60s.
Most Amazing Experience
I was in the United States Navy from 1967 - 1970. We were deployed to the Mediterranean Sea on a 6 month cruise at the time ending with a stop at Portsmouth England. I had years earlier purchased butterflies from a place in Brighton England called World Wide Butterfly Limited. They had a shop right down town at that time, so my first stop was going to be Brighton. London would wait for another day.
When I found the little shop I had hope to see specimens of the then little know rare Birdwing Butterflies that they had for sale from time to time. One of the hardest to obtain at the time and going for well over 90 British pounds just for a male was Ornithoptera croesus lydius. It was on their listings not that long ago and I had hoped to see one. They had lots of other species to look at but no Birdwings when I was there.
The manager of the shop being a very nice person and apparently liking the US Navy kindly told me although he did not have what I was looking for in stock, if I was on my way to London and had a minute, all was not lost. Making a phone call I heard him ask if he had the British Museum of Natural History and could he speak to a Dr. Vane-Wright. He told Dr. Vane-Wright that he had an American Sailor in his shop and could he find the time to show him some Birdwing Butterflies when he got to London.
Hanging up the phone he said if I would go to the British Museum of Natural History and to the floor with the big butterfly exhibit there would be a door to the left of the display, go there and ask for Dr. Vane-Wright, he would be expecting me. I found Dr. Vane-Wright to be a caring person and eager to show off the collections. I was completely flabbergasted. After showing me where the Ornithoptera were housed in that vast collection, he left me to look on my own while he worked at one of the many tables, coming to him only when I needed help finding some particular species I was hoping to see.
So for many hours that afternoon, I pulled out insect drawer after insect drawer, looking at Birdwing after Birdwing. You talk about awesome. Every time I pulled out a drawer every specimen data label would say the same thing on it, Rothschild, some would say holotype, some would say allotype and others said paratype but one thing they all had in common, they were all Rothschild originals. Specimens sent back by those like A.S.Meek and others from their expeditions which Rothschild and his colleagues had named types and used for the original descriptions of the different Ornithoptera species being discovered at that time; dates also agreed with much of what I had read of the discoveries.
Every time I think back about that afternoon I get excited all over again at having seen firsthand the specimens that go with the dates and locations and discoveries I had read about over and over again.
I sent correspondence to Dr. Vane-Wright several time after that and he always graciously took the time to write me back. Awesome, awesome that’s all I can say. I’ll never forget it.
Harry
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Post by nomad on Jul 11, 2013 9:54:36 GMT -8
A marvellous story Harry. I too used to occasionally frequent the Worldwide butterfly shop in the area known as the lanes in Brighton when I was in that area. Better times indeed at the BMNH. Only those that have a deep interest in groups of butterflies such as the awesome Ornithoptera will know what it may mean to a person to be able to view these historic specimens. Peter.
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Post by kingha on Jul 11, 2013 9:56:49 GMT -8
I might add of interest:
The Rothschild collection was housed on the 3rd floor. All the windows were steel barred and when I asked Dr. Vane-Wright about the bars he said they had had several people try to scale the walls and come through the windows to steal material..
At that time the newly discovered Ornithoptera rothschildia was by most considered a form loc. of chimaera. Dr.Vane-Wright said there were only 3 males in existence, 2 were in the Rothschild collection at the BMNH and the 3rd one in a private collection...
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Post by kingha on Jul 11, 2013 10:00:22 GMT -8
yes Peter. I have been a collector since 14 years old, I am now 66 years old..and of all my experiences connected with collecting to me this one was the greatest of them all.
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Post by nomad on Jul 11, 2013 10:57:45 GMT -8
I might add of interest: The Rothschild collection was housed on the 3rd floor. All the windows were steel barred and when I asked Dr. Vane-Wright about the bars he said they had had several people try to scale the walls and come through the windows to steal material.. Wow butterflies and cat burglars.
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Post by bobw on Jul 15, 2013 2:23:56 GMT -8
I got to know Dick Vane-Wright during the many days I spent researching a book at the museum. He was always very helpful and friendly despite being extremely busy. Of course he was also very knowledgeable; I even got him to write the foreword to the book for me.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 14:07:35 GMT -8
Somehow I don't think it's her job to go round opening each draw in turn Adam. you would think 5 years in charge she would have had a look in each drawer. I know i would have. I'm sure you would have also Hiya adam I received an email today from Blanca Huertas curator leipidoptera NHM. When we had this discussion regarding her going through every drawer, of which she says she has 35,000+ drawers, I emailed her to ask if she had indeed seen every specimen. This is what she wrote. Blanca Huertas Tostring38@sky.com Dear Peter, Thanks for your email and apologies for not getting back sooner. I guess it might be too late for a response but there you go. What I recall I said at the time of the interview (3-4 years ago), was I haven't opened all drawers in our collection as we have 35000+ here. When we move to the new building DC2 in 2009 I had the chance of my life to 'check and inspect' every single drawer if they have arrived safe, I was really lucky! I like mostly Neotropical species because that is my area of expertise so I know little better about them. Only from that region I have found new species. But I do love every single butterfly existing in the world, and got all of them under my care here at NHM. Thanks for your nice email. I wish you all the best working with one of the most fascinating organisms, insects! Blanca Blanca Huertas FLS DIC MSc Curator (Lepidoptera) Life Sciences Department The Natural History Museum
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jul 18, 2013 3:25:00 GMT -8
Peter,
Good of her to clarify that the original quote was from several years ago. Indeed I can imagine that she would take responsibility for inspecting all the draws to ensure there was no damage as they were moved back from Wandsworth into the new building.
I got to know Blanca in 2006 when I was visiting in Wandsworth, she is very knowledgeable about Neotropical Lepidoptera and also very enthusiastic about helping legitimate research. At that time she hadn't actually been promoted to her new post, as Phil Ackery hadn't yet retired.
Adam.
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Post by exoticimports on Aug 16, 2013 9:40:18 GMT -8
OK, get ready to beat me up.
I'm all for limiting access to significant collections & specimens.
Maybe you all are better than I, but I have damaged specimens in my collection- pinning too closely, even dropped a few. A friend of mine dropped his drawer last year with disasterous results. God knows when I pulled out the drawer with "THE" O victoria I was nervous as hell that I might drop it. Then after lifting the glass top off- what if I fumbled the camera and smashed the damned thing? I'd have been famous for destroying the first victoria known to science.
I've noted that even handling drawers, sometimes a leg will fall off, or some other minor malady. Multiply that by hundreds of possible handlers, and how quickly a collection might be damaged.
Would you let someone you don't know into your insect room with permission to handle drawers, open tops, and remove specimens for photographs? I wouldn't. Anyone that has examined my collection has had me right their by their side. Not that I don't trust people, but I have been there. Certainly I wouldn't grant access to a previously unknown enthusiast.
Yes, it is fabulous to personally look at some of the BMNH drawers. But in granting that priviledge the museum takes a risk- for what return?
On the topic of thefts- BMNH's butterfly collection has been the victim of theft many times. And, one of the leading crooks was a very well known and generally respected lepidopterist. So who can you trust? Probably the last type of person I'd trust is the extremely serious armchair collector who specializes in some genus- might be too tempting to grab that one last desired subspecies.
Just like getting a permit to collect in a country- museums have become very strict about access. If you are serious enough and put in enough effort, you can get in.
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Post by nomad on Aug 16, 2013 10:50:16 GMT -8
You do not need to remove any specimens to photograph them. At the Oxford Museum where I was made very welcome by excellent staff, the drawers are bought for you to examine. Then checked by a very knowledgeable staff who know their butterflies. There are not large numbers of visitors [ there a fewer specialists that you might think who are interested in these things ] and they are pleased that you show a interest, what is the point in hoarding specimens if they cannot be studied !
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Post by suzuki on Aug 16, 2013 12:23:42 GMT -8
Yes that sounds reasonable security protecting both the visiting enthusiast and also for museum itself being the custodian of collections that usually are gifted to it by a member of the public. The other point is that the museums are maintained out of the public's purse. As such the public should not be prevented from reasonable access to collections which you rightly say should not be hoarded so they cannot be studied by proper enthusiasts.
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