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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 9, 2013 1:26:22 GMT -8
Peter,
I agree that "they have only themselves to blame if they were not getting their just rewards from his books", and that his books are a very good record of some of the specimens in the NHM collections, including types and unfortunately some supposed types that are not true types at all. It is a great pity that he did not include data from the labels on the specimens as well. Also any specimens in books that he published before 2000 that he stated were the "holotype" or "the type" that were actually not holotypes but syntypes became inadvertent Lectotype designations that we are now stuck with.
D'Abrera mostly based his names and supposed classification on the works of Rothschild and Jordan, and pretty much ignored most publications since then, except some newer subspecies that he knew about. Compare his books on Papilionidae of the Oriental and the Neotropical regions with that of the Holarctic region and you will see the difference. Is it just coincidence that Rothschild and Jordan didn't publish much on the Holarctic species? He also deliberately used junior synonyms and junior homonyms ignoring the nomenclatorially correct names for butterflies. If he had used the correct names we would have a lot less confusion and mess than we have now.
Having said that D'Abrera's books are certainly very useful to most people, and I have bought all of them over the years including the volumes on other families; but you have to take the information inside with a "pinch of salt" because it certainly isn't very scientific (even ignoring his personal foibles!).
You mentioned above that "The British Museum operates a really excellent bug identification service which has many members and is staffed by an excellent team of the most helpful Entomologists. This bug identification service was precisely set up to help the public". Indeed that is funded with the very objective of helping the public, whereas the scientific departments at the NHM are not. Personally I really believe it would be a good thing if the collections were more easy to view, and the specimens and information attached to them were more accessible. I am sure that over time many of these problems will be solved. For instance photos of many types can now be found online, and I am sure many more will become available in future.
I have to go now, so I'll finish here.
Adam.
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Post by coleopterra on Jun 9, 2013 8:47:45 GMT -8
It was not necessary to visit the collection in London, the curators Sharon and now Max provided high resolution photographs of every specimen and view I needed, and the permission to publish these photographs. I dont know whats your definition of being amateur or professional, they treated me that way long before I had published my 1st paper. Furthermore, I am sure when you are going to visit the collection with a short proposal, including which specimens you wish to see and the taxonomic problem you are working on, they will allow you to have a look. Otherwise not, and this is absolutely reasonable from my point of view, they have to manage their resources, which in any area of research are not available for excitement. In the moment you provide your research proposal, you are professional, no matter who you are. Cheers, Robert Coleop-Terra
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Post by nomad on Jun 9, 2013 10:11:08 GMT -8
Colepterra. I am pleased to hear you got your photographs from the curators at the British Museum and hope to be able to purchase ones of the types that I wish to see but have had no reply. Certainly you would have to be automatic robot not to get excited about seeing perhaps the greatest collection on earth that hold all the type specimens of the species that you study. I believe it is important to be able to view the holotype specimens that you are studying to make comparisons with subspecies so that you can evaluate them for yourself because there is so much confusion created by different taxonomists. By professional entomologists I mean those that do this for a living, I do not so whether you like it or not we are classed as amateurs. I can assure you my study is important to me as it is to you.
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Post by jonathan on Jun 9, 2013 12:38:21 GMT -8
Hi people, I'm finding this limited access to the BMNH somehow strange because during Feb 2011, I spent days inside the BMNH photographing Satyrinae specimens to help me identify specimens I have in my collection. To tell you the truth, that is from where the idea of building a website on Western Palearctic Satyrinae all started. I remember first I got in touch with Dr. Ian Kitching because I knew him due to the insect donations I made to the museum but he told me that I had to get in touch with Dr. Geoff Martin who at that time was the Head of the Lepidoptera collections. I remember that then Dr. Martin told me to get in touch with Dr. Blanca Huertas and she was the person who patiently enough gave me a very interesting tour of the "cocoon" and of the various collections and finally gave me access to the Satyrinae collections. I don't know if I was lucky to get this access but for sure I wasn't alone in there as I remember that I met Torben B. Larsen who was photographing African Pieridae for some book and there 2 other guys taking photos as well. Jonathan www.satyrinae.yolasite.com/
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Post by irisscientist on Jun 9, 2013 14:44:40 GMT -8
As per Jonathan's message (above), when attempting to locate a difficult (Lelecella limenitoides) specimen for my own research purposes, I also dealt directly with Dr. Geoff Martin at the NHM, who was extremely helpful and ultimately offered to donate sufficient material, from the NHM collection, in order for me to conduct of my specific research needs. Of course this donation was subject to completion of a strict, but obligatory Material Transfer Agreement (MTA), which thankfully ultimately was never submitted due to finally acquiring the required specimen (at the last minute) from an alternative source. All in all however, if your research is valid and you have been approved by the appropriate backing, the team at the NHM appear to be very accommodating. Without proof of intention however, I must agree that the NHM are simply protecting their investments. If you are serious with your intentions, you must fight your corner as I have, and justify your reason(s) to wanting to view/gain access to the required specimens. If these essential requirements are achieved, the NHM should subsequently have no reason to deny you access to the specimens your wish to view. Harsh but true.
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Post by saturniidave on Jun 10, 2013 17:37:07 GMT -8
I too have heard many stories of people being refused access to various museum collections, and not just the B.M. Having worked in a large museum and also having been witness to various political and financial restrictions I can give you a good answer. When I was curator of insects I was allowed to take members of the public to view the museums many collections, likewise with the molluscs even though I was technically 'just a volunteer'. I did work and completely renovated and curated the insect and mollusc collections. At that time I worked under the Curator of Natural History, one of several curators in charge of the collections. There was quite a good team of volunteers in all the departments and we all made sure any public enquiries were seen, to leave the curators to do the daily work they did. One fine day we were informed we were not to be allowed to use the staff car park, which was always a squeeze but we managed. Instead we had to use a car park attached to a local shopping mall at £8.50 per day (if it was not full when you arrived that is). The museum did give a small allowance to cover petrol costs but that is all it did, there was none left to pay for parking fees. The outcome of this is that almost all the volunteers left, very few could afford to stay and those were mainly older people who had free bus passes. Personally I think this was all part of a plan to get rid of us and save money.
Later on they decided to cut back on staff, instead of curators of natural history, archaeology, ethnography and fine art they decided on one Collections Manager. As a consequence of this the collections were left unattended for pests to run riot among the insects and others, with many types and paratypes there to eat. The collections manager is too busy dealing with organising exhibitions, kiddies fun days and loans to spend time showing a member of public around the collections so that is why there was (in Dunc's case) a 28 day waiting period. If you had waited Dunc no doubt you would have had a half hour whistle-stop tour and promptly asked to leave after. It is all down to financial cuts, especially in council-run, regional museums such as the one I worked at. So if you are told there is a long wait, you know why. It is so the '12 year old' can find a window in her tight schedule to be pestered by a member of the public to see a butterfly.
As an aside I need to visit that museum to research some mollusc specimens, I wonder how I will do?
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Post by zdenol123 on Jun 12, 2013 12:46:50 GMT -8
All collections in there are opened to entomologists who seriously study this or that group. Everyone who needs to see the types for scientific reason is allowed and greatly welcomed in there. How can it be opened to everyone ? You talking about the collections which needs to be safed for the next generations. How can that curator know what person you are, what you want and what you will do ? How can they allow hundreads/thousands/milions of just hobbyists > Then they could store that collection in the park...its locked for some reason and this is the reason . Keep the collection safe and out of reach of just common people. Btw. All of them in there HATE just collectors-shoppers...
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Post by wollastoni on Jun 13, 2013 0:51:42 GMT -8
French Museum is not as modern as the BMNH, they have less money and personal than the BMNH... but they welcomed me and let me check their Delias collection. They even took time to discuss with me and offer me a cup of tea ! Here is a rare Delias callima caught by AS Meek in PNG from the MNHN Collection. As they were very nice with me, I donated them a Papuan specimen from my collection they don't have. Attachments:
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Post by lepidofrance on Jun 13, 2013 1:50:46 GMT -8
I donated them (MNHN) a Morpho helenor marajoensis that I collected long time ago (when it was possible to collect in Brazil) and was lacking in the Museum collection. Same with some Idea blanchardii ssp. nov. from Togian Archipelago. Here the sample given to the MNHN : "MNHN, they have less money and personal than the BMNH... but they welcomed me and let me check their Delias collection" Right ! Few money and very few personal. And the problem with too few staff is to monitor visitors: some of these visitors steal specimens!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 3:31:22 GMT -8
stealing from national or regional collections is dispicable.
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Post by coleopterra on Jun 13, 2013 5:47:24 GMT -8
Since I live in Bolivia and traveling around the world has become expensive, I often rely on photographs. While I have good experiences with London, the insect collection in Paris never worked for me. It might be because original collections are retained, which makes it difficult to locate important specimens, and because of lacking funds and staff. I have a very good experience with the people in the crustacean collection in Paris. This adds further complexity, it often depends on different areas in a single museum or single individuals, and not on the general policy of the museum. In some taxonomic groups you can find a lot competition, which also varies between countries. Curators often have collaborations with other, better known taxonomists and will never provide information. In this respect, nomad, it is nothing about being amateur or professional. Cheers, Robert Coleop-Terra
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Post by bobw on Jun 13, 2013 6:55:10 GMT -8
I've never been to MNHN but I have requested photos of type specimens; whilst I had to fill in forms explaining why I needed them and it took some time, I did get them eventually.
The problem at BMNH is mainly one of staffing levels. As the government have cut funding to such institutions they have to get by with fewer and fewer staff, so they simply don't have the time to deal with large numbers of visitors. They therefore have to limit visits to people doing genuine research. Red tape and collection reorganisation also dictates that they can't allow any visitors free access to the collections, particularly since they are now all housed in compactors. As staff have to get everything from the collections for these researchers they have even less time.
When I was researching my book I spent several weeks at the BMNH searching for types and taking photos. They gave me a set of keys and left me to get on with it; I even worked there at weekends as long as there was one member of staff somewhere on the premises to let me in and out. This was under the previous regime and as I was well-known at the museum I had free range. Whilst I have a good relationship with the current regime this could never happen now due to the introduction of more red tape and the collection layout.
The emphasis now is to put as much information as possible online so that people don't have to visit the museum in person; this is particularly useful to researchers in other countries. This reduces the demand on staff time and allows them to concentrate on the main parts of their jobs such as research and curation.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 14:43:41 GMT -8
Hello fellow collectors, as some of you will know I specialize in collecting various groups of butterflies as many members do because of the enormous field of lepidoptera available to them. Some will also know that I am especially interested in Ornithoptera and have also have had a long fascination with the Delias butterflies of the mountains of New Guinea and its Islands and have recently started to collect these stunning butterflies. I also collect other Papilionidae of the Indo-Australian region. I certainly do find all butterflies interesting and in my own country I find it better to collect with a camera, although I certainly formed a British butterfly collection as a young person and was an avid Moth collector, spending many nights [ often with my reluctant dad in tow] patrolling my sugaring patch in local woodland. I have long held a desire to visit the lepidoptera collections at the British Museum and because of my obsession with Birdwings and Delias I wanted to see some of the types and perhaps take a few photographs of those species collected by heroes such as Meek, The Pratts, Eichhorn and Wollaston who daily risked their lives in New Guinea and other places to collect these butterflies. For me collecting butterflies is an absorbing hobby but would be pointless without a good knowledge of their Natural History and the collectors who first found them. I believe we have much to thank Walter Rothschild for, unlike many of the very wealthy, I believe he spent his money wisely and sent these brave collectors not only to New Guinea but to all parts of the world in search of butterflies, moths and other insects. I had been told that unless I was a professional Entomologist, worked as a scientist in the museum or produced lavish volumes on butterflies, I would not get in to view the butterflies that held a major interest for me. One person who works in the museum wished me luck but thought I had no chance. He did mention the groups I wished to view were only for specialists only. But hang on I thought, I do specialize in these groups but do not produce lavish volumes on them. I first contacted the collections manager by e-mail who did not even have the courtesy to reply. I next tried the person in charge of the lepidoptera collection who did reply but completely ignored my request and referred me to the museums picture library where I would find all the historical types of the butterflies I was interested in because they have all been photographed by museum workers. In fact this picture library did not have a single photograph of a Delias butterfly let alone a image of a type specimen. The Library suggested I contact them if I did not find what I was looking for and an automated message said I would be contacted within 48 hours but guess what, no reply. The idea was that if my image could be found I what purchase a copy. I contacted the curator of the museum's lepidoptera about this state of affairs and would they find the images of the types specimens but again no reply. The specimens I wished to view are held in the large bequest of Walter Rothschilds collection to the museum and I know he held the Birdwings and Delias butterflies in high esteem and left them to the museum because he knew they would be properly cared for. As he left his extensive world collection to the nation I believe the great man would have wanted those with a genuine interest to have access to them. It is clear that the people in charge of the insect collection operate a class system which continues to be a unfortunate part of the British Society in general. peter, I don't know if lf leicester museum holds collections of butterflies, but if they do, i am very good friends with John Metcalf who was head curator there for many years. I could easily get you in there mate no problem.
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Post by nomad on Jun 14, 2013 23:45:02 GMT -8
Hi Stringer. Thanks for the offer of help. I really needed to able to get access to the BMNH collections. One kind entomologist there has been in contact and has found three of the type specimens that I wish to view and has sent me a copyright declaration form that I have signed and returned to him. I believe if I am lucky enough to obtain images they must be for my own reference. I am still fighting my corner to gain access to the museums collections. There are many type specimens that I wish to view so that I can evaluate the subspecies for myself, it is one thing being told this new discovery is a new subspecies by different taxonomists without being able to view the original nominate race for yourself. The information on the data labels is equally important to me, this is rarely produced in books. I know B,D' Abrera has produce images of some of the museums collection but there is so much more that I would like to see and study. Perhaps there is a problem with the groups that interest me because these are well known. If I was interested in an obscure group of smaller beetles that looked very much alike I would probably have stood a better chance. I do believe the study of all insects whatever your preferred group is equally important to that person without exception. I must admit that even though Delias are a well liked group there has been no recent book on this lovely genus, what a wonder that would be, perhaps because of the many recent discoveries such a book may become out of date very quickly. Then there is the fact that Olivier and his friends have their truly magnificent website which is updated constantly with high quality information and images from many top experts. However, I still wish to see all those type specimens and data labels and could do this much quicker with access than contacting the museum each time I wished to view those type specimens in the hope of getting good images. Even though I am rightly paying for the photographs, I believe the time and resources in obtaining them would be much less than be able to photograph and study them myself. Now, only if I could save enough money to get to a little explored mountain range in New Guinea and find a new Delias and donate to the BMNH perhaps my problem would be solved. However not being wealthy this perhaps might be a problem and there are all those butterflies that I need to buy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2013 7:14:40 GMT -8
Did you see the programme on the BNHM showing the butterfly collection? It's a lady that is in charge there. She says that she has been there for 5 years and there are drawers that she hasn't even opened? If you type in the museum of life, theres a small clip on there about it. The series is available on DVD. It's no longer available on iplayer
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