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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 14, 2021 13:26:17 GMT -8
This is supposed to be P. cresphontes from Mexico .I have a P. thoas thoas from Brasil that has nearly identical markings only it's much larger and more elongate forewongs. Is that the difference?  |
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Post by livingplanet3 on Feb 14, 2021 14:20:31 GMT -8
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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 14, 2021 14:58:50 GMT -8
I'm still not sure , there is a faint fourth spot on mine .
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Post by livingplanet3 on Feb 14, 2021 15:16:03 GMT -8
According to the BugGuide link: "NOTE: The three or four submarginal spots mentioned in the key above are relatively large spots. In both species there are sometimes more tiny spots in the same position in cells above these (don't count those)".Yes - it can still be rather difficult to distinguish between the two species, even with the above detail. I suspect that your specimen is probably cresphontes, though. It's been my observation that on average, the tails in thoas are slightly more elongate (although, as with the markings, there is some variation in that, too). |
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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 14, 2021 18:03:19 GMT -8
I guess I'll go with cresphontes!
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Post by eurytides on Feb 14, 2021 18:27:30 GMT -8
I think thoas. The forewing spots in cells M2, M3, Cu1 all typical thoas. Hindwing submarginal yellow spots - looking at the crescent shape of the innermost two spots, this would also go with thoas.
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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 14, 2021 18:27:31 GMT -8
well, here a pic besides P. thoas thoas from Brasil. but I'm not sure what P.thoas from mexico looks like for proper comparison  |
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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 14, 2021 18:30:53 GMT -8
I think thoas. The forewing spots in cells M2, M3, Cu1 all typical thoas. Hindwing submarginal yellow spots - looking at the crescent shape of the innermost two spots, this would also go with thoas. oh no! more confusion! |
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Post by eurytides on Feb 14, 2021 18:50:00 GMT -8
No confusion. Both looks good for thoas. The M3 and Cu1 spots are rectangular in thoas and more oval in cresphontes. The M2 and M3 spots are nearly equal in size for thoas, not so for cresphontes. Both specimens you show look like thoas to me.
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Post by eurytides on Feb 14, 2021 18:51:58 GMT -8
Google some pictures from reputable sources and compare these characteristics for the two taxa. The differences are hard to notice, but once you do notice them, then it doesn’t seem as subtle.
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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 14, 2021 19:00:59 GMT -8
oh well, I was kind of hoping it was cresphontes because I didn't have that species!
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Post by eurytides on Feb 14, 2021 19:19:20 GMT -8
Cresphontes is pretty common. I don’t expect you would have too much trouble finding it on the market.
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Post by Paul K on Feb 14, 2021 19:42:51 GMT -8
I agree it is P.thoas. Looks exactly the same as ssp.autocles I collected in Costa Rica. I suppose it is same subspecies.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 15, 2021 4:16:44 GMT -8
This specimen is P. thoas autocles as eurytides and Paul K say. In any case if it comes from Mexico it can't be Papilio cresphontes, it is either P. rumiko or P. thoas autocles. Papilio cresphontes does not occur in Mexico. Here are a couple of jpeg figures extracted from the original description of Papilio rumiko Shiraiwa & Grishin, 2014 to show the difference between rumiko and cresphontes and the distribution of the two species.   Citation: Shiraiwa K, Cong Q, Grishin NV (2014) A new Heraclides swallowtail (Lepidoptera, Papilionidae) from North America is recognized by the pattern on its neck. ZooKeys 468: 85-135. doi.org/10.3897/zookeys.468.8565Unfortunately for lordpandarus the more obvious differences between those two species are on the underside. Adam. |
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Post by eurytides on Feb 15, 2021 6:05:02 GMT -8
Adam, does thoas use Rutaceae? There seems be much confusion about this on the internet but I can’t locate an actual paper to clarify the issue either way. On the one hand, thoas is closely related to cresphontes so Rutaceae use seems plausible at least. However, other sources say thoas only uses Piperaceae. This might also be plausible since the taxa are easily misidentified. Do you have any insights?
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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 15, 2021 7:27:36 GMT -8
Thanks for all the replies that was very informative!
I didn't even think of P.rumiko
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Post by Paul K on Feb 15, 2021 8:44:20 GMT -8
To compare two species side by side I took a photo of my specimens. left: P.thoas autocles-male, Braulio Carrillo, San Jose, Costa Rica right: P.cresphontes cresphontes-male, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada   |
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Post by 58chevy on Feb 15, 2021 9:19:36 GMT -8
Cresphontes is found fairly near the Mexican border, so it's not out of the question that it occasionally strays there. Thoas has noticeably longer, narrower tails than cresphontes. Rumiko tails are shorter than thoas but narrower than cresphontes.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 15, 2021 11:02:39 GMT -8
Adam, does thoas use Rutaceae? There seems be much confusion about this on the internet but I can’t locate an actual paper to clarify the issue either way. On the one hand, thoas is closely related to cresphontes so Rutaceae use seems plausible at least. However, other sources say thoas only uses Piperaceae. This might also be plausible since the taxa are easily misidentified. Do you have any insights? As far as I know most subspecies of thoas are Piperaceae feeders, except thoantiades from Argentina which feeds on Rutaceae. Adam. |
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Post by leptraps on Feb 15, 2021 11:06:29 GMT -8
I have never collected Papilio thoas. I have specimens from Nicaragua, all males courtesy of the late John Meyers of Fort Myers.
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Post by eurytides on Feb 15, 2021 11:24:52 GMT -8
Adam, does thoas use Rutaceae? There seems be much confusion about this on the internet but I can’t locate an actual paper to clarify the issue either way. On the one hand, thoas is closely related to cresphontes so Rutaceae use seems plausible at least. However, other sources say thoas only uses Piperaceae. This might also be plausible since the taxa are easily misidentified. Do you have any insights? As far as I know most subspecies of thoas are Piperaceae feeders, except thoantiades from Argentina which feeds on Rutaceae. Adam. Are they exclusive Piperaceae feeders though? If you took those subspecies and gave them only Rutaceae, would they die? |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 15, 2021 11:40:00 GMT -8
I expect that a larva which had been feeding on Piperaceae would refuse to eat Rutaceae leaves if transferred to them, but don't know whether freshly hatched 1st instar larvae would accept Rutaceae leaves or ignore them. Whether they would successfully go all the way through to adults is another question. Unfortunately I am too far away to find out myself.
Adam.
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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 15, 2021 12:18:31 GMT -8
The specimen of P. cresphontes pictured in Paul Smart Encyclopedia of the Butterfly World is from Mexico and looks more like the P.thoas in your comparison pic.
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Post by eurytides on Feb 15, 2021 13:42:13 GMT -8
The specimen of P. cresphontes pictured in Paul Smart Encyclopedia of the Butterfly World is from Mexico and looks more like the P.thoas in your comparison pic. Like I said, easily misidentified! Do you have a picture you can upload to show the butterfly in the book? |
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Post by nomihoudai on Feb 15, 2021 14:57:05 GMT -8
Papilio cresphontes is the most flappy looking Papilio around here. When you see them in the wild you will probably know what I mean. I think the ventral hindwings give a good determination with everything being aligned in a clear line in thoas.
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