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Post by eurytides on Jul 9, 2021 19:26:00 GMT -8
Those are not canadensis. Spring glaucus can have some canadensis like features and cause confusion when it comes to ID. However, canadensis is single brooded and never looks like glaucus. I have collected canadensis from ON, QC, MB, AB. There is never doubt or confusion.
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 13, 2021 13:50:42 GMT -8
Here are MST and canadensis, both from Wayne Co., NY along the southern shore of Lake Ontario. I've been trying to determine which Tiger is on the wing in the hilly regions of Finger Lakes, but no luck. Weather has been terrible. I saw but one today, and I was stopped by an electric fence. Within two weeks we will be inundated with summer form glaucus.
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Post by eurytides on Jul 13, 2021 19:28:43 GMT -8
Bingo. Now that you have them side by side, you can clearly see the difference between a legit canadensis and MST. What are the dates of these captures Chuck?
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 16, 2021 3:59:45 GMT -8
Bingo. Now that you have them side by side, you can clearly see the difference between a legit canadensis and MST. What are the dates of these captures Chuck? canadensis is late May 2011, MST is 1st week of July 2021. I got my eyes on a tiger yesterday, looked like summer glaucus, so they're emerging now. Chuck
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 16, 2021 4:11:32 GMT -8
I picked up an interesting book that's cited in several of the previously linked sources, that being The Butterflies of Virginia, Clark & Clark 1951.
I got it specifically because it has a good focus on the Tigers- some 20 pages. It reads not unlike this meandering thread; noting flight periods, contrasting morphological characteristics, trying to make sense out of observations. It is, naturally, outdated; for example, the authors fight against canadensis being a subspecies and note the virtually identical "forms" as far south as Virginia. One thing that caught my interest is the description of the Tiger from Newfoundland as looking very southern summer form- and indeed, the image shown looks very much so. But I searched BOMONA and iNaturalist, and those images shown from Newfoundland are very much canadensis...interesting.
Perhaps concerning appalachiensis and/or MST (or not), I found this:
"Ten days or two weeks after the first appearance of [spring form] in the District of Colombia and northern Virginia it rather suddenly becomes much commoner...These individuals are of a type which is not the same as that to which the individuals earlier on the wing belonged, nor do they resemble the summer individuals." That said, the authors later say that this mid-flight form "are readily distinguished by the hairy body and the tuft of hair on the front of the head; the complete isolation of the submarginal yellow spots on the under side of the fore wings..." So who knows.
Chuck
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Post by eurytides on Jul 16, 2021 4:59:27 GMT -8
I wonder if those specimens from Newfoundland are mislabelled. I have a hard time believing they look like southern glaucus.
The comment about the "hairy body and tuft of hair on the front of the head" are interesting. I have never come across this before. Do you have any pictures? I want to check my specimens to see if there are any differences as described. Thanks for doing all that digging and the interesting information! Is DC and northern VA within the known range of appalachiensis?
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 16, 2021 6:08:39 GMT -8
I wonder if those specimens from Newfoundland are mislabelled. I have a hard time believing they look like southern glaucus. The comment about the "hairy body and tuft of hair on the front of the head" are interesting. I have never come across this before. Do you have any pictures? I want to check my specimens to see if there are any differences as described. Thanks for doing all that digging and the interesting information! Is DC and northern VA within the known range of appalachiensis? The authors use a variety of physical and morphological attributes for comparisons. Some are largely debunked these days, such as the large UPS HW orange spot. Interestingly, they cite that the wide black UNS HW stripe used to ID canadensis is inconsistent, and not reliable; I think this too is debunked, though perhaps some local populations do buck that trend. The hairy body and head is cited several times as an ID attribute. Keeping in mind too that being published in 1951, their studies were done in the 1940s. And though they used the Smithsonian collection for reference, they often do cite the number of specimens from locations, and the numbers are very small. I suspect that the massive collections housed in various museums were, in fact, quite small until the explosion of citizen entomology in the 1950s and 1960s. So their data set is miniscule, and a single aberant could throw off everything. I'm typically remiss to scan & post a significant part of a publication, even if doing so for research is legal. That said, it's been out of print forever, and the authors are deceased, so it's not like anyone is being cheated of income. Any comments from anyone? If you use the distribution map for appalachiensis, it comes nowhere near Washington DC, though there are a few records (which I did not verify) from NoVA. www.inaturalist.org/taxa/226950-Papilio-appalachiensis of course, this is contemporary, who knows what it was in the past? I'm still questioning the relationship between MST and the Ithaca thing, and to appalachiensis as well. MST has been called "like appalachiensis" but has it been proven that MST is not appalachiensis? Chuck
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Post by eurytides on Jul 16, 2021 6:17:27 GMT -8
"but has it been proven that MST is not appalachiensis?"
No. Chris Schmidt is doing some molecular work on this, and last time I heard, he was in need of appalachiensis specimens!
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 20, 2021 2:13:37 GMT -8
For reference, summer form glaucus is out now. And nectaring like glaucus. Some specimens are missing huge wing sections and most scales, probably a result of the recent storms.
Chuck
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 20, 2021 4:46:34 GMT -8
This is a good UNS photo of a "canadian tiger" www.inaturalist.org/observations/86867691Date is July 11, 2021. Adirondacks. FW is very canadensis, but HW looks more glaucus with rounded lunules. Looking at iNaturalist, there is but one record of glaucus for NY north of I-90 for July 2021. All (except that one) north of I-90 are labeled as canadensis. I also noticed two dark females from the NYC area. Chuck
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Post by eurytides on Jul 20, 2021 5:02:09 GMT -8
Whatever this is, it’s not canadensis. The anal margin black band isn’t thick enough. Claspers are also darker in canadensis.
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 22, 2021 11:12:11 GMT -8
Summer form glaucus is now ramping up fast in Finger Lakes. I'll post some brief observations, and follow up when I can with photos. First stop is the field with thistle, shown in my 27 August 2020 post. As expected, a number of summer-ish form glaucus; the UNS submarginal band is not quite "full glaucus" wavy. Second stop is the field with yellow cup flowers. Nothing??!!! OK, so only 2,000 blooms instead of 20,000 but seriously...nothing? Third stop is a field of thistle and milkweed and grasses. Nothing. Fourth stop is a new location. Many tigers (and Papilio troilus & asterius) feeding on blue/purple flowers. This was a "last ditch" stop, as it's a hilltop, and it's Utopia. Five tigers in 20 minutes; two quite small, look like spring form; the other three vary between summer-ish (UNS HW mid-way between spring and summer forms) and "southern style, full glaucus" wavy line.
Does anyone recognize the plant below? I believe it to be New York Ironweed, Vernonia noveboracensis. Confirmation or correction highly appreciated!
Note below, though summer form glaucus, the apparent influence of canadensis.
No sign of MST. Specimens are split between totally destroyed (I attribute this to the series of recent, serious storms) and fresh (new eclosures). More later. Chuck
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Post by exoticimports on Aug 3, 2021 11:41:16 GMT -8
I found a new to me paper (2015) about Tiger genetics and speciation. I added it to the list on page 2 as well. www.cell.com/cell-reports/pdf/S2211-1247(15)00051-0.pdfI've had no time to update the post above with images, been very busy. Last week I was in VA (bombed) and PA (struck gold). Now back to the local places listed above; following a strong storm on Sunday the populations of butterflies are way down. One other note: I've seen more Papilio troilus this year than my entire life, combined. Not just in NY, but PA, VA, etc. Up this way, females are rarely seen, while in late July I could have caught dozens every day.
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Post by eurytides on Aug 3, 2021 12:28:03 GMT -8
Thanks Chuck, I don’t think I have read this before. Will try to get to it when I have time. Very poor year for tigers in my region and for some reason the rest of my MST pupae have not developed. They are still alive though. Very strange.
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Post by exoticimports on Aug 3, 2021 12:35:26 GMT -8
Thanks Chuck, I don’t think I have read this before. Will try to get to it when I have time. Very poor year for tigers in my region and for some reason the rest of my MST pupae have not developed. They are still alive though. Very strange. Perhaps "obligate" does not mean "july". If you look at P appalachiensis records, you'll see it flies earlier than MST and "Ithaca", otherwise I'd just say they are appalachiensis. The paper discusses genetic influences to dipause. I've observed a mass of fresh tigers, then massive storms, after which the population has repeatedly crashed and many adults fly around missing extensive wing area. With wave after wave of storms in the region, it would be interesting to study the mortality rate, but I'd not even know where to start. Chuck
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