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Post by eurytides on Jun 29, 2021 9:02:17 GMT -8
I used to know how to write my name in Mandarin. It's one of the more complicated characters with 22 strokes. According to my parents, it means morning, reflecting my time of birth.
You can stick in ash, tuliptree, poplar. However, there's some overlap with hosts and I'm not sure that's a good way to distinguish MST and glaucus. Best way is to raise them and pay special attention to what the first instars look like, whether they are obligate diapausers, and how long it takes them to break diapause next year.
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Jun 30, 2021 4:46:42 GMT -8
I have responded to many of the post on Papilio glaucus, Papilio appalachiensis, and Papilio canadensis. My interest goes all the way back to the early 1970's. I was living in South West Virginia and collecting in the rather famous, Poverty Hollow in Montgomery County. I saw and or collected a number of "oddly" marked Tiger Swallowtails.
I now believe that these various populations were created do to the isolation of various locations. The farther into the mountains I collected and explored, the more oddly marked individuals I would or could encounter.
My time in Southwest Virginia was amazing for a Lepidopterists from a big city! (Cleveland, Ohio)
I must ad that my time in Florida, Mississippi, North Carolina, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, West Virginia, Kentucky, Virginia and Michigan provided numerous opportunities to collect Papilio glaucus and related kin. Even when I travel out west, I collect every yellow Swallowtail I encounter.
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Post by exoticimports on Jun 30, 2021 6:04:48 GMT -8
I collect every yellow Swallowtail I encounter. Well then you're a better man than me, because I run under 5% capture rate! It would be great to have close-up photos of the undersides of your Tiger specimens. Sure, all of them, why not? Chuck
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Jun 30, 2021 9:15:08 GMT -8
I used the word collect as an event. I release the vast majority. I want to visually look over the specimen.
I have a rather extensive collection of Papilio glaucus. I have three drawers of Papilio glaucus from Ohio/Indiana/Illinois. Kentucky I have two+ drawers, and I have 6 drawers from Viginia, 2 drawers each from Michigan and Ontario (Canada). I have two Drawers each from North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia. I also have some from eastern NC, Alabama and Mississppi and a drawer each from Texas, Oklahoma and Arkansas and lots of odds and ends in two drawers. I have a couple of Schimdt Box's of Papilio glaucus from anyplace I have travelled and collected. I have three drawers of Maynardi and Appalachenses and a drawer of anything in between.
And I am going to put it this way to all of you. There are several individual's on Insectnet who consider me a braggart and a show off. However,I would consider photographing my drawers of Papilio glaucus and posting them. I do fear a negative reaction. Please remember, I have been a very active Lepidopterist for over 60+ years.
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Post by trehopr1 on Jun 30, 2021 10:09:10 GMT -8
Insect related photographs from anyone (regarding any thread) are always AND hugely appreciated !
In that manner someone is "sharing" with the community something unique, interesting, or generally pleasing to look upon...
You are and have been a diligent hobbyist, breeder, collector, enthusiast, and above all -- tried and true "Lepidopterist" since when you could pick-up a net.
With OVER 60 years of passion and dedication you really SHOULD have something to show us !
Yours is a personal "research" collection with A LOT of splendid material you should share (and be proud of sharing; with the greater enthusiast community).
After all, one day it will arrive at the Mcquire Center and there only a handful of people will ever see it or appreciate the work/passion that went into acquiring, cataloging, and accumulating it.
BRAVO, on a lifetimes effort and DO share with us all -- your marvelous collection !
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 8, 2021 3:54:22 GMT -8
Here's a quick shot of a specimen. Capture data as follows: NY: Wayne Co. Lake Ontario, 1.5km N. Sodus Point In other words, it was captured over the lake from a boat. Winds S at 10kts, so presumably it blew offshore and was trying to return. That said, previous days were NE winds, so it could have blown from Canada to USA, and later blown offshore. However, the condition indicates to me that it hadn't travelled much.
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 8, 2021 3:59:05 GMT -8
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Post by eurytides on Jul 8, 2021 9:08:28 GMT -8
Looks like MST. Lots of intermediate traits. The hindwing submarginal spots are more rectangular than lunular, less scalloping of the HW, relative straightness of the black/blue bands on the HW underside. Here's a quick shot of a specimen. Capture data as follows: NY: Wayne Co. Lake Ontario, 1.5km N. Sodus Point In other words, it was captured over the lake from a boat. Winds S at 10kts, so presumably it blew offshore and was trying to return. That said, previous days were NE winds, so it could have blown from Canada to USA, and later blown offshore. However, the condition indicates to me that it hadn't travelled much.
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Post by eurytides on Jul 8, 2021 9:09:46 GMT -8
Top specimen is aberrant. Look at how thin that black border on the FW is. On the underside, basically no orange in the lunules on the HW.
The bottom specimen looks like typical glaucus.
Next, and off topic since these are not from Finger Lakes region. Captured late June, central PA. These were found within 10km of each other; approximately 200m difference in elevation. While I understand P. glaucus to be highly variable, these demonstrate an extreme, if indeed both are glaucus.
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 8, 2021 10:07:20 GMT -8
Thanks Eurytides! That would make it the first identified MST on the southern side of the lake. Perhaps not ironically, it was captured within 3km of where I got a confirmed canadensis. Take a look at this "canadensis" photographed in July, in southern Finger Lakes (Thompkins County) www.butterfliesandmoths.org/sighting_details/1298889Chuck
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Post by eurytides on Jul 8, 2021 10:12:45 GMT -8
Chuck, those both look like MST to me. Real canadensis would have thicker black bands on the HW anal margins. Plus, look at the dates. FRESH specimens July 5 for canadensis? That's south of Kingston and would emerge earlier than canadensis here, which is late May-early June. By mid-late June, you're going to see tattered canadensis in Kingston.
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 8, 2021 11:14:32 GMT -8
Chuck, those both look like MST to me. Real canadensis would have thicker black bands on the HW anal margins. Plus, look at the dates. FRESH specimens July 5 for canadensis? That's south of Kingston and would emerge earlier than canadensis here, which is late May-early June. By mid-late June, you're going to see tattered canadensis in Kingston. That's what I'm thinking. Not to single him out, because many are guilty, Ross Layberry rubber stamps IDs based on...well, I'm not sure. I presume some of it is the solid yellow UNS FW band; still many photos on a variety of crowd sourced sites are UPS and there's about zero ability to ID the Tiger. Outside of Adirondacks, there's one P. canadensis record in NY I trust. So if Mr. Layberry is identifying MST as P. canadensis, what few UNS images exist should give us some insight into the range of MST. I've gone back over my records/specimens and (saving everyone time who might think of going through all 11 pages of this thread) this most recently posted photo from the lake is all I can find for MST; in other words, every record I have for northern Finger Lakes is glaucus. I'll bet P. canadensis and MST range from Sodus Bay east; notably Sodus Bay is where the winter cold and snow is remarkably "Canadian" ha ha. Then we have Layberry's Ithaca MSTs, and Ithaca means cold, and snow. But it can't be just cold, since Toronto is colder than Sodus. So the range of MST correlates to snowfall, then both the southern lakeshore and 40 miles inland the higher elevations of Finger Lakes should be MST (with glaucus). Ah, something to go in search of.
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 8, 2021 12:24:56 GMT -8
ETA, I thought to contact Mr. Layberry for his insights, and on the TEA page found this: www.ontarioinsects.org/index.html"See the article Tiger Swallowtails: Making Observations in 2020 for tips on recording tiger swallowtail observations this spring and summer. In short, anyone making observations south of the Sudbury area should take pictures -- especially of the underside -- and not rely on sight observation." It, in turn, links to this www.ontarioinsects.org/tigers.html "Tiger Swallowtails: Making Observations in 2020" by Alan Macnaughton which is an overview of canadensis/glaucus/MST with maps (including a detailed distribution map for Toronto area); which then links to previously (in this thread) papers by Chris Schmidt and our own Xi Wang. So I'm rather confused why Mr. Layberry identifies Tigers with only UPS, and/or how he identifies them. Chuck
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 9, 2021 12:34:55 GMT -8
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Post by eurytides on Jul 9, 2021 19:17:13 GMT -8
I am not sure what to say about Layberry. He is one of the authors of Butterflies of Canada, the first butterfly book I ever owned. He is very knowledgeable but no one is perfect and I have no idea if he is up to date on the MST situation.
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