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Post by eurytides on Oct 22, 2020 19:15:31 GMT -8
Yeah, canadensis is univoltine and an obligate diapauser. They need winter to break diapause and have a second generation.
I suspect the late flight showed up in your region circa 2000 due to climate change. It’s about the same time cresphontes really expanded northward into Ontario and Quebec, which we chatted about earlier. Prior to that, cresphontes was pretty rare here. Now they are abundant.
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Post by exoticimports on Oct 23, 2020 3:30:19 GMT -8
eurytides I thought some of the info in the paper would be new to you, but since you've read it, clearly your observations/ info includes the discussions presented in the paper. So is the late flight in Vermont MST? Both Hagen and Scribner (early 1990s) call the Finger Lakes (plus) region a "hybrid zone" with high levels of canadensis inbred; not surprisingly, this coincides with the all-yellow population (though at first I took this to mean MST before MST was recognized.) That said, when I've broached the topic, as I read it, you believe this population to have some archaic canadensis, but not really a 50/50 hybrid?? I just find the situation odd, aside from the question what is and where is MST. We have an all-yellow "race" boxed in by canadensis, apparently appalachiensis, and the dark female "race"; this all-yellow race has been, for decades, noted as being odd/ unusual/ questionably a hybrid. Yet, I see not much in the way of genetic and other studies done to compare it to the nominate dark female group to discern if it is a distinct ssp or race. I find it interesting, since apparently I'm in the hotbed of all this, with arguably four different Tigers within a 2.5 hour drive. Chuck
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Post by eurytides on Oct 23, 2020 5:52:33 GMT -8
Well, it's been a while and I'm sure some of the stuff in the paper would be new to me but I do recall the general ideas of the article.
MST is such a new concept. I don't think we know its range of if it's "one thing" or multiple. I would guess Vermont has MST. My understanding of the situation is that the tigers you see in May and June are glaucus with some genetic introgression from canadensis. I think this was discussed in a paper earlier in the thread. This is why spring form glaucus has canadensis-like features. The false second generation, or MST as we call it now, is the non 50/50 weird mix of canadensis and glaucus. I don't think it's 50/50 because it clearly occurs in areas where no F1 is possible because there is no glaucus. Like, you can see them in the Ottawa region in Ontario, and glaucus definitely isn't that up north. Where are the glaucus parents to provide the 50%?
I'm unsure if the "yellow race" glaucus coincides exactly with the region where "spring form" glaucus occurs. If so, the lack of the melanic females is likely due to some gene flow from canadensis as well as lack of mimic models up north (like Limenitis arthemis astyanax). I think one of the previous papers posted in this thread also addressed that. Now, the question is, does that make it a subspecies? Here, it depends on your personal preference. I think because this trait is clinal, most legit taxonomists would hesitate to say it's a different race. Color morphs also have no taxonomic status under current nomenclature rules as I understand them.
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Post by exoticimports on Nov 15, 2020 15:42:52 GMT -8
Back to Name This Specimen: tiny little thing, from the south mid shore of Lake Ontario (NY). Not MST, clearly. Glaucus spring or canadensis?
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Post by Paul K on Nov 15, 2020 16:18:04 GMT -8
I would say canadensis based on the size and anal black margin but it’s not 100% clear.
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Post by eurytides on Nov 15, 2020 17:46:30 GMT -8
I would also say canadensis. Wing shape, submarginal yellow on FW, blue on hindwings, anal margin black band, more rectangular lunules submarginal HW.
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Post by exoticimports on Apr 15, 2021 12:32:29 GMT -8
Back to top...ONE MONTH TO GO! I'm dyin'
Anybody learn anything new about Tigers over the past six months?
Chuck
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Post by eurytides on Apr 15, 2021 14:20:22 GMT -8
Nope, but any day now I will take my MST pupae out of cold storage.
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Post by exoticimports on Apr 15, 2021 16:37:05 GMT -8
We were bouncing around emails today on the topic. I don’t suppose MST is appalachiensis, habits adjusted for latitude?
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Post by eurytides on Apr 15, 2021 16:43:40 GMT -8
Probably different, although they may have had a similar speciation mechanism. Appalachiensis had black females and the only known host plant is black cherry. MST is polyphagous and there are no melanic females.
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Post by exoticimports on Apr 15, 2021 17:10:59 GMT -8
I gotta get me one of those MST. If they are in Kingston, they should be in Cape Vincent.
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Post by trehopr1 on Apr 15, 2021 22:54:24 GMT -8
Hey fella's, I have been watching this thread for some time with interest. Geez, you guys sure have a lot to say about glaucus, canadensis, and the transitional zone of their occurrence. Really, quite fascinating ideas and read. Now, I cannot keep up with you guy's necessarily on this topic however, I enjoy all things regarding Papilio glaucus, it's subspecies, and related similar species. As I'm sure others do as well... Having read that exoticimports was dying for any information as of late; well, I cannot really add anything I've read or heard but, hey sometimes a nice drawer is up-lifting ! So, below, I post a picture of one of my 4 drawers of males. Sorry, no unique aberrants, gynandromorphs, or stuff like that... Just beauty. Yellow labels indicate July captures. Red ones are August captures. *When I have more time latter this next fall/winter I'm going to put the labels on the pins or at least make duplicate labels for the pins. This was an experiment for me as I noticed our member "Panzerman" did the same with his collection.
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Apr 16, 2021 3:41:00 GMT -8
Several years ago I posted that I collected Papilio glaucus while visiting "Red Clover" and promptly told that Papilio glaucus does not visit plants on the ground.
Yesterday while visiting an area near Fairport Harbor, Ohio, I found a mud puddle club consisting of a dozen males of Papilio glaucus and several Pseudothyris sepulchralis, a small Black & White moth that only appears in the early spring. The moths currently reside on a spreading board.
I also found Papilio glaucus visiting a small White flower growing along the edge of a two track road.
While chasing down a record in my collection for Calephalis borealis from the Craig's Creek area of Montgomery County, Virginia, I found a note in my field note book from 1975 for numerous Papilio glaucus visiting Red Clover in Caldwell Fields.
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Post by exoticimports on Apr 16, 2021 4:01:35 GMT -8
Contrasting more western specimens (e.g., IL) with those from NY, the western male specimens (1) tend to have more black coverage on the UPS HW, (2) lack the orangish dot at the top of the UPS HW submarginal yellow spots and (3) tend to not extend the UPS FW yellow spots all the way and (4) tend to have very little to zero blue within the black on the HW.
Chuck
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Post by gaspipe on Apr 16, 2021 4:02:05 GMT -8
Hey fella's, I have been watching this thread for some time with interest. Geez, you guys sure have a lot to say about glaucus, canadensis, and the transitional zone of their occurrence. Really, quite fascinating ideas and read. Now, I cannot keep up with you guy's necessarily on this topic however, I enjoy all things regarding Papilio glaucus, it's subspecies, and related similar species. As I'm sure others do as well... Having read that exoticimports was dying for any information as of late; well, I cannot really add anything I've read or heard but, hey sometimes a nice drawer is up-lifting ! So, below, I post a picture of one of my 4 drawers of males. Sorry, no unique aberrants, gynandromorphs, or stuff like that... Just beauty. Yellow labels indicate July captures. Red ones are August captures. *When I have more time latter this next fall/winter I'm going to put the labels on the pins or at least make duplicate labels for the pins. This was an experiment for me as I noticed our member "Panzerman" did the same with his collection. Beautiful display
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