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Post by eurytides on Oct 8, 2020 15:15:25 GMT -8
Is appalachiensis 2 disjoint populations?
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Post by exoticimports on Oct 8, 2020 16:26:49 GMT -8
Is appalachiensis 2 disjoint populations? Different sources cite differing ranges. I don’t think it’s known what the range is. Then there is the hybrid thing. The whole tiger thing is very complex, and now appears to be fluid. I was hoping for answers, I think in my lifetime all I can do is contribute quality data. But in all I’ve learned much. A running thread on this topic may have valuable insights. For example, Scribner hints at it but nobody has ever said “glaucus was univoltine in finger lakes.” It has been insightful for me and looks like there a lot of research to which many of us can contribute. I can pretty much take a marker and draw distribution of canadensis and appalachiensis (albeit with a PA circle and question mark- for which I'm already dubious). My next project will to be to determine, from online sources, the range of the all yellow "race" which I have no doubt will look an awful lot like Scriber's range map on thermal limitations; this is done by plotting records of black females, thus boxing in the all-yellows. MST, I have no idea! That requires accumulation of quality (generally, specimen [not photo]) records; Scriber's "hot spot" is only two hours from me, and most of my time now is spent in "the zone of confusion" between all-yellow, canadensis, and MST. My hypothesis- Scriber's "hybrid" isn't MST, it's the all-yellow "straight line" version we have in Finger Lakes; hopefully next year I can explore this. If I'm correct then the range of MST is extremely limited. Scribner mentions thousands of wild specimens captured and analyzed; I wonder where these are. Cornell? In all, if anyone ever asked why it's important, it's clear to me: geographic ranges are changing, likely a result of warming. We need a benchmark of "before" in order to examine change. Schitt, we don't even have the foundation for that yet...on a butterfly described by Linnaeus! Chuck
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Post by eurytides on Oct 8, 2020 16:52:28 GMT -8
I have never had the chance to collect appalachiensis. Maybe one day... Apparently, appalachiensis is like 3/4 canadensis, but still retained the genes for melanic females. One could spend a life time studying the tiger swallowtail complex. Scriber has and he only scratched the surface.
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Post by eurytides on Oct 8, 2020 16:57:17 GMT -8
I can’t remember if Chris Schmidt had specimens from NY when he did his molecular work. I will email him and ask. It’s hard to know if Scriber’s late flight tiger swallowtail is MST. I agree we need quality specimens and data. I have no idea what the range of MST really is, no one does. Online sight/photo records are helpful but imperfect, and clearly, even “experts” get stuff wrong sometimes.
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Post by exoticimports on Oct 8, 2020 17:20:45 GMT -8
Clearly, photo records of living specimens on flowers are virtually useless for all-yellow, MST, Appalachiensis, and often canadensis. When the photo is attributed, the data becomes rubbish. Look at the “professional approved” distribution maps.
I will continue to access and present private and institutional records. Ironically enough, I know colleagues at BMNH, AMNH, Smithsonian, Carnegie, etc but have no contacts at Cornell- two hours from home!
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Post by eurytides on Oct 8, 2020 18:01:39 GMT -8
Clearly, photo records of living specimens on flowers are virtually useless for all-yellow, MST, Appalachiensis, and often canadensis. When the photo is attributed, the data becomes rubbish. Look at the “professional approved” distribution maps. I will continue to access and present private and institutional records. Ironically enough, I know colleagues at BMNH, AMNH, Smithsonian, Carnegie, etc but have no contacts at Cornell- two hours from home! Dude, if you have all those contacts, surely they can put you in touch with someone at Cornell. It’s not a big community.
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Post by exoticimports on Oct 8, 2020 19:05:09 GMT -8
Clearly, photo records of living specimens on flowers are virtually useless for all-yellow, MST, Appalachiensis, and often canadensis. When the photo is attributed, the data becomes rubbish. Look at the “professional approved” distribution maps. I will continue to access and present private and institutional records. Ironically enough, I know colleagues at BMNH, AMNH, Smithsonian, Carnegie, etc but have no contacts at Cornell- two hours from home! Dude, if you have all those contacts, surely they can put you in touch with someone at Cornell. It’s not a big community. Time, money, and bureaucracy. I’ve spent some $30,000 of my own money studying Leps in SoPac for two new butterflies. Now stuck in NY I need to establish local contacts. I know Kingston better than Rochester, and Bangkok better than Toronto. I know every shoal between Clayton and Gan, but have to use GPS driving in Buffalo. I’m learning my way back home.
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Post by eurytides on Oct 9, 2020 5:14:17 GMT -8
Doesn’t cost money to just email people.
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Post by exoticimports on Oct 9, 2020 7:44:30 GMT -8
Doesn’t cost money to just email people. Time. It’s always something. I’m so busy I usually don’t have time for breakfast or lunch. I’m being naughty when I take time to study the tiger conundrum. The next tiger series I want to photo is 15 minutes away but I can’t get the time.
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Post by eurytides on Oct 9, 2020 7:50:17 GMT -8
I’m sorry to hear that. They say it’s good to keep busy...but not sure how much is too busy. Appreciate all the time and effort you are putting into this. I suppose we find time for the things we love. I often sacrifice sleep for bugs...
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Post by exoticimports on Oct 9, 2020 10:45:49 GMT -8
Based on records in butterfliesandmoths.org, I mapped the north-eastern limit of the black-female race (blue line). This could change a bit based on other sources.
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Post by Paul K on Oct 9, 2020 11:06:33 GMT -8
I can confirm that I never saw black female anywhere in Ontario. Although I only was collecting once in far south near Point Pelee where they can occur.
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Post by exoticimports on Oct 22, 2020 4:37:41 GMT -8
I found a paper that indirectly but strongly answers my question concerning why in the Finger Lakes Papilio glaucus was univoltine until circa 2000. eurytides , this paper may well shed light on MST as well. While it is specific to Papilio appalachiensis, some VERY interesting field observations, such as (my bolding): phenomenon of canadensis “late flight”, which has emerged recently near the northern limit of the glaucus-canadensis hybrid zone in Vermont [38], [41]. The late flight occurs in July and is allochronic relative to true (“early flight”) canadensis, which flies in May and June [38], [41]. The late flight has been hypothesized to be a result of hybridization between glaucus and canadensis, potentially representing an early stage in the evolution of an appalachiensis-like entity [41]. We used our DNA sequence and AFLP data to test whether late flight canadensis is of hybrid origin, and whether it is similar to appalachiensis. We found that unlike appalachiensis, the late flight is entirely canadensis-like at both its mitochondrial and Z-linked genes, except for three late flight individuals that were heterozygous for glaucus- and canadensis-like haplotypes at Kettin (Figure 2A). However, AFLP data show a strong signature of genome-wide admixture in late flight individuals (Figure 3C). Furthermore, the AFLP signature of the late flight is indistinguishable from that of laboratory-generated glaucus x canadensis F1 and F2 hybrids but distinct from appalachiensis (Figure 3C, Figure S2B), as expected if the late flight is a result of recent hybridization. The recent history of hybridization in the late flight is also supported by coalescent simulations (Figure S4, also see below and in Materials and Methods). Together, these data show that its history of introgression is dissimilar to appalachiensis. The late flight has the potential to speciate through allochronic flight period and larval host plant specialization [20], [41]; however, unlike appalachiensis, it may be a transient phase in the northward movement of the glaucus-canadensis hybrid zone in a changing thermal landscape. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3169544/From the paper, a distribution map. Note the Thermal Isolation Zone (grey) along the south side of Lake Ontario and going west- very close to that shown in Scribner (1990). Frustratingly, no comment in this paper on what's in this zone; it's not an exclusion zone of Tiger Swallowtails, except to exclude pure species (e.g., glaucus with dark female to the south, and pure canadensis to the north.) On a similar note, while I'm remiss to believe many potentially difficult identifications in iNaturalist or ButterfliesandMoths.org, this singular record of Papilio appalachiensis on the NY side of the NY/ PA border is pretty solid, reading " Observation notes: Extremely large size combined with markings, especially ventral view, confirm Appalachian Tiger. A new species sighting for me for this area." If this record is indicative of a population, not an errant individual. And, in response to eurytides question, if the range is contiguous through the Appalachians all the way into NY, it would put Papilio appalachiensis smack-dab between the two races/ clades of Papilio glaucus nominate and All Yellow. Chuck
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Post by eurytides on Oct 22, 2020 17:08:39 GMT -8
Hey Chuck, yeah I read this paper a while back. Recently molecular data (not yet published) using different markers/techniques suggests these are not just F1 or F2. We don’t have glaucus where I live (Kingston) so there is no way it’s F1. Also, I suspect the admixture occurred longer than this paper suggests based on data presented by Chris Schmidt. I think this, whatever it is, has been present for a long time but just missed or misidentified rather than arising the last few decades. Think about appalachiensis. We called that glaucus for like 250 years!
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Post by exoticimports on Oct 22, 2020 18:02:34 GMT -8
So there is no canadensis second flight, as I’ve now observed with Finger Lakes glaucus ? It’s MST? Only?
But where did this second flight thing come from? Suddenly explodes on the scene in Vermont at the same time second flight glaucus starts up?
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