Butterfly relaxing questions

[lordpandarus]

I notice over the years that some specimens almost fall apart after a few hours in the relaxing box , making them extremely easy to spread (if the wings don't fall off), others are "normal time" (1 or 2 days) but others remain stiff even after a few days even after injecting them with water.

i know some chemicals affect this when they are killed, but is there other factors. I seem to have very little control over this.

[Adam Cotton]

Specimens that almost fall apart immediately on relaxing were basically decomposed inside before they were dried, so there's no muscle tissue left which needs softening.

Of course the previous treatment of a papered specimen before you receive it is completely out of your control. You just have to check specimens in the relaxing box regularly, and take extra measures for 'difficult' specimens.

Adam.

[lordpandarus]

Actually this is more what I want to know:

Is it normal that on some specimens you still have to somewhat force the wings open (even hear a slight cracking noise) even after many days in the relaxing box?
Or should every specimen eventually become extremely soft and open with no resistance if your relaxing method is optimal?

I've been doing this many years but still not sure I mastered the "optimal" relaxing method and time period to spread a butterfly.Sometimes I'll set a specimen and it's still a bit stiff even if I inject it or leave it longer than usual to relax, so I was wondering if there's additional steps I could take in those case .

[papilio28570]

I use Listerine mouth wash as the wet medium in my relaxing chambers...a tip which I picked up here in the Forum some years ago. I have left specimens in the chambers for as long as a month...due mostly to laziness...but have never had a mold problem or discoloration.

But to your question, many years ago while reading through W.J. Holland's, "The Butterfly Book", he described a method of using a mounting pin and repeatedly stabbing the ventral wing muscles (similar to a sewing machine action) of stiff specimens that will not fully relax. I have been using this method over 50 years with great results, but I go a step further to ensure success. After you have inserted the setting pin through the thorax and then stabbed the wing muscles, I hold the butterfly/moth by the bottom of the setting pin and take the flat end or butt end of my forceps and slide it between the dorsal wing surface and the top of the setting pin. Then with the edge of the forceps next to the thorax and the flat side of the forceps against the wings, I stretch or exercise the muscles by applying downward pressure against the wings to open one side and reposition the forceps on the other side of the setting pin and open the wings on the other side. Then proceed to set the wings as normal.

WARNING: Stabbing the wing muscles too many times will destroy too much muscle resulting in floppy wings (if they don't fall off} 4 or 5 jabs for Papilios and large Nymphalids, 6 to 8 for large Saturnids. With practice, in time you will perfect the technique.

This is also useful for butterfly/moth fore wings that tend to wrinkle at the basal leading edge. Generally though, this problem stems from the insect's body being pinned at the wrong angle because the long axis of the body was used as the guide for pinning the insect into the board groove. Specimens that die with a drooped abdomen will mislead you into thinking you have the correct alignment between the plane of the board and the insects body.

[lordpandarus]

good tips. I'll try the listerine .It's the one with alcool right?

Can you post a picture of where exactly to stab the thorax? I might try that too.

Slightly stiff specimens don't pose a problem when setting most of the time as I learned to cope with it , but I'd like all my specimens to be fully relaxed as it makes the job easier

[papilio28570]

Yes, with alcohol. No need for a picture...just simply stab the thorax in the area where the wing adjoins. Don't stab the wings..just the thorax muscles. One side and then the other.

[jshuey]

One way to deal with stiff bugs is to "crush" the thorax below the wings. After you insert the pin through the thorax, simply use forceps like these to squeeze the thorax very firmly. This will lower the wings, and, if the specimen is reasonably relaxed, they will stay flat. This works well with "muscular insects" like large skippers and Preponas.

The forceps that I use are fairly expensive - but the curved portion of the forceps, (not the fine-point ends) seem to crush the muscles without removing legs or palps.

john

[Deleted]

While I’ve used the thoracic crushing technique, it’s my last resort. After relaxing, if specimen is still too stiff to position, simply inject gin into the ventral area of the thorax until it oozes out the spiracles or other area. Then let it sit for five-ish minutes. Then gently try to move stiff wings or beetle legs. If not yet movable, repeat and again wait. One can also take a paint brush and dab the base of the ventral wing where it meets the body. Or, for beetles, dab the outer joints of the stiff legs and let the capillary action suck the gin into the joint. I’ve used this dry gin method for decades and have even tried w specimens that have not been softened at all. If an antenna is seeming to be drying too fast, paint the gin onto the antenna several times, wait a few, then the antenna will be pliable. Of course....try to keep the gin off the wing surfaces. Try this first w spare specimens so as to get it down first. I’ve used this method with large beetles, Ornithoptera, sphingiids, and saturniids along with others. Try it.....u might like it.

[exoticinsects]

After reading this thread i wondered why people would use gin or listerine?
I just use normal rubbing alcohol (70%) to relax beetles or any other insect.
I haven't used it on butterflies yet because i inject a very small amount of boiling water if the wings are still stiff after some time in the relaxation chamber
Never had one that wasn't ready after injection.

It seems to me that these other products containing alcohol also hold other ingredients such as sugars, oils, coloring, ...
No need for these to come into contact with a specimen.

[Deleted]

Just sharing my liking for clear extra dry 80% proof dry gin......have used it for decades wo issue. Perhaps I’ll give isopropyl a try......always willing to experiment. Btw......my bottle of extra dry gin only has no ingredient listing for coloring, sugars, or oils.

[lordpandarus]

I'll try injecting alcool.

Time to experiment, I was getting set in my ways

I'm relaxing a Charaxes specimen right now. Soaked my relaxing paper towels with alcool+water instead of just water .And I'll leave it in there for at least 5 days (unless it starts falling apart)

[lordpandarus]

Hmm , I usually relax my specimens putting it in between damp paper towels. It looks different with a mix of alcohol and water, like the wings absorbed the alcool and look stained (sort of like when you put the a specimen in acetone) . I hope it dies alright when I set it.

[exoticimports]

The alcohol should not stain. It sounds like your specimens are very wet, which could draw oils from the body to the wings.

Chuck

[Deleted]

Maybe I’m missing something, but the alcohol is only meant for injecting into the body, not as an additive to water in the softener. I inject alcohol after the initial basic water softening. Massive alcohol amounts on the wings could very well stain them. In summary........soften the specimen in a water based container ( my water softener container is also heated to abt 100-110 degrees as I’ve placed two 25w light bulbs under the container on a rack. After two days or less depending on specimen status, and it’s still stiff, inject dry gin as described into the base (ventral) area of the thorax and gently work the wings as needed and or repeat.

[papilio28570]

Bottom line is to experiment and find which method works best for you. Water only as a relaxing agent becomes moldy in my chambers after 4 or 5 days even though I sterilize them with Clorox and boiling water. I've tried heated containers as Bill uses, but this causes a lot of sweating in the chamber and quickly moisturizes the wings long before the body muscles become soft enough to work with. Alcohol, Listerine, Gin...seems like the common denominator there is alcohol.

Merry Christmas everyone