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Post by bicaliber on May 26, 2016 10:19:42 GMT -8
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Post by exoticimports on May 26, 2016 12:21:02 GMT -8
Are Ornithoptera covered under ESA? Is it possible to "take" something that is already captive? This should get interesting now.
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Post by bichos on May 26, 2016 13:07:16 GMT -8
Are Ornithoptera covered under ESA? Is it possible to "take" something that is already captive? This should get interesting now. Most "bred" or captive Ornithoptera used to be wild collected. Farming involved planting host plants and harvestig pupae. Im not sure how they do it now. No grey areas with protected species, if declared as threatened by extinction the whole animal and all its parts are off limits, period.
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Post by ornithorchid on May 26, 2016 14:24:47 GMT -8
Same thing for hybrids. O priamus X O croesus doesn't occur naturally, yet people can achieve this by artificial breeding. This hybrid still requires CITES paperwork. CITES requirement would be more easy to understand for allotei or akakae, both naturally occurring hybrids.
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 27, 2016 6:50:22 GMT -8
Ah, but ALL orchid hybrids also need CITES permits, even though they may be multigeneric totally artificial hybrids from stock that has been bred in greenhouses for 10 or more generations.
The reason is that customs officers don't know how to distinguish a hybrid from a natural species, so regulations require CITES for all of them.
Adam.
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Post by timmsyrj on May 27, 2016 11:11:24 GMT -8
Ah, but ALL orchid hybrids also need CITES permits, even though they may be multigeneric totally artificial hybrids from stock that has been bred in greenhouses for 10 or more generations. The reason is that customs officers don't know how to distinguish a hybrid from a natural species, so regulations require CITES for all of them. Adam. Also true with some marine corals and fish, I have had plenty of corals , fish and orchids over the years and never been given any CITES paperwork, licence number etc but i need to have them for my butterfly collection which are dead specimens. What a strange world we live in. All the best Alex. Rich
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Post by ornithorchid on May 27, 2016 17:15:32 GMT -8
Ah, but ALL orchid hybrids also need CITES permits, even though they may be multigeneric totally artificial hybrids from stock that has been bred in greenhouses for 10 or more generations. The reason is that customs officers don't know how to distinguish a hybrid from a natural species, so regulations require CITES for all of them. Adam. Well may be a little more education for these people, which may actually bring extra interest in their every day job, would be useful... And here we go again: a question of Knowledge again I guess.
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 28, 2016 0:52:15 GMT -8
CITES devised these regulations because they realised that customs around the world could not be expected to be able to recognise the difference between a natural species covered by CITES and hybrids. They had to design systems that could be applied everywhere, not only in a highly educated place.
Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 31, 2016 12:39:36 GMT -8
radusho,
That is EXACTLY my point. CITES drew up the regulations that way in order to solve the problem of Customs officers' inability to distinguish different species (orchids, various genera of butterflies and many other taxa).
This was the very reason why CITES listing was rejected for Papilio aristophontes, because if that species was included it would have been necessary to include all the similar species, such as P. nireus.
Adam.
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Post by cabintom on May 31, 2016 19:55:49 GMT -8
LOL What a joke that would be if P. nireus / sosia / chrapkowskii were listed in CITES.
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Post by timmsyrj on May 31, 2016 23:15:45 GMT -8
I very much doubt that customs officers can tell genus let alone species, if they listed all Ornithoptera because they couldn't differentiate then why not all machaon group not just hospiton, and hermeli, karna and paris not just chikae after all they only see the undersides of papered specimens, also can they tell any parnassius species from apollo, hell, a lot of collectors can't. Why are customs stopping boxes of papered specimens from Africa? I don't believe there are any CITES species there but they still ask for a list of contents, and even with a list, could they identify them?
Rich
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Post by timmsyrj on May 31, 2016 23:25:21 GMT -8
[quote author=" radusho" So it is necessary to detemrine the Genus only, not species (it has nothing to do with custom officers ability to distinguish species)[/quote] Only Parnassius apollo is listed as appendix II no other Parnassius, so going on genus alone they would stop all Parnassius species, but dropping the "apollo" part and calling them only by genus and sub species name seems to work on eBay at least, Parnassius apollo nevadensis is protected but it appears Parnassius nevadensis isn't?? Rich
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leptraps
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Posts: 2,397
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Post by leptraps on Jun 1, 2016 2:06:02 GMT -8
I ship Light Traps all over the world. They have past through customs of 30+ nations with out a problem. However, list it as an Insect Light Trap, and it will be opened and searched for insects.
No offense to customs officers around the world. Most have no knowledge about insect other than the potential threat to agriculture. If the description has the word insect in it, they will open and search the box. And then hold the shipment until they, the customs officers, figure it out.
The word "insect" in the contents descriptions of you shipment is a sure fired way to get you shipment opened, possibly damaged and delayed.
I am speaking from experience.
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Post by exoticimports on Jun 1, 2016 4:07:13 GMT -8
I ship Light Traps all over the world. They have past through customs of 30+ nations with out a problem. However, list it as an Insect Light Trap, and it will be opened and searched for insects. No offense to customs officers around the world. Most have no knowledge about insect other than the potential threat to agriculture. If the description has the word insect in it, they will open and search the box. And then hold the shipment until they, the customs officers, figure it out. The word "insect" in the contents descriptions of you shipment is a sure fired way to get you shipment opened, possibly damaged and delayed. I am speaking from experience. As a kid we traded with entomologists in other countries and found that writing "El Insecto El Scientifico Estudio" (we didn't speak Spanish) on the package would ensure that the package would NOT be opened (= tampered with/ damaged)! My how times have changed.
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Post by timmsyrj on Jun 1, 2016 5:28:03 GMT -8
Why are customs stopping boxes of papered specimens from Africa? because it is a package from a third world country. If you were sent a box of socks they would still checked it. Maybe so, but they don't check parcels coming from countries with CITES species in, Vietnam, China, Philippines etc and all my parcels have "dead dried insects for scientific study" on the customs declaration, I insist on this is put on by the sender and where possible a list of contents, not easy when I'm buying 1,000 mixed nymphalidae etc My thought was drugs etc but then I've had boxes from Colombia and Jamaica in the past. Rich P.S just to be clear I mean the countries have CITES species present, not the parcels. All my CITES specimens when purchased nowadays come from within the E.U since IFTA finished.
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