no offers nowadys from PNG??

[timoinsects]

since IFTA was closed(WHY closed door?),insects from PNG seems unavailiable?

and nowadys traveling country to country is much easier than before. a airticket slove problem,but no one make hunting trip to PNG?

i ever talked a bit with friends,said it is dangerous to collect there due to the security(crims possible,maybe rob etc. for $$). and native tribe people ,no idea on their custom/tradition,what can do and what forbidden,if collecting insects in forests doesn't offensive them?
many questions/problems.

another question:
nobody in PNG use computure to do insects business? maybe legally forbidden normally by their authorities? but as i know,some countires also forbidden unlegal insects export without a pert. yet some dealers did,like as in china,this dones't harmful to society(it is a hobby!) so the goverment just ignored this normally if not into the several portected species.

and a problem of the widespread use of compture. infomation is easy to be found from commercial websites,the poeple there may see wow our insects are good value i would perfer into this business soon?

but yet no any sign of thouse . this makes it's hard to collect insects from PNG,a paradise for wildlife.

hope this situtation will change in a near future. ;D

[wollastoni]

Yes no more insect dealers in inland PNG since IFTA and Wau Ecologic Institute have disappeared.

IFTA disappeared because of bad management. There are sad rumors about what happened to W.E.I. and Michael Hudson... hope they are ok.

Collecting there is dangerous:
- not because of "tribal aggressiveness" but because of gangs and local smugglers. There is no powerful state there (very different from West Papua).
To give you an example, a contact of mine from Port Moresby university lost his brother few months ago, killed by guys who wanted to stole him about 2 or 3 dollars...
- reaching interesting regions is difficult and costful. Not profitable at all for professional insect dealers.
- nearly impossible to obtain official permits. (PNG authorities are too busy logging primeforests for palm-oil, gold, copper...)

Thus very few specimens come from inland PNG nowadays.

There seems to be few scientific expeditions led by Australians/NZ in Bismarck Archipelago (New Ireland, New Britain) so few bugs are coming from there. Laurie may tell us more about that.

Hope an IFTA equivalent will recover one day. Properly managed, they would earn a lot of money and provide local villages a way of earning money without cutting the forest.

[lucanidae25]

Are we contributing to this problem ourself as colloctors in PNG? By wanting our insects cheaper and cheaper to a point that is no longer profitable for the dealers to support their catchers and their faimlies??

On the other hand I'm looking at the reasons why Japan has everything that you can possibly want and I can only come up with one reason, that is Japanese willing to pay more for their specimens. This is why Japan has all the best collections in the world.

Should we pay a little bit more for our specimens to encourage more dealers to go to PNG?
I think it's already too late for IFTA and Michael Hudson.

[nomihoudai]

Yes pay more to the point that the collector can afford some mercenaries to take with him. Then there will be more collecting going on there

[lucanidae25]

I think the biggest problem what we are facing here is that there are not enough young collectors are taking up this interests and most of the older collectors would have most of the common materials in their collection but with out the support from the young and up coming collectors, it's very hard for the dealers to sell the common materials. It's not going to be enough to just sell all the rare materials and make enough money to support the local catchers.

[timoinsects]

how about to try contact PNG people directly by internet and teach them how to collect if are willing to. it's a boring job and may hopeless.

like many other countries,i have seen there're exportion trade forums of PNG,people there also sell their argriculture products.but they may don't don't insects specimen is a better way to make $$ at least for some people there.

i also saw a people from country left message that in a need of insects specimen suppliers there,i would guess it's hard for him.


i think this problem will be sloved in some years driving by the reducing PNG insects specimens and increasing values and our desire.

[timoinsects]

about japanese have many great sp. of the world.

i ever talked with a japanese collector he told me he visted PNG in 1970's or 1980's himself and collected many rare specimen i saw the photos attached to me. they visted the tropical countries around Japan. included to south/south west china i heard the natives talked about. but just some years maybe around 10 years ago and older time. purchased directly from the native dealers' home,the the price got very hight after they took back the specimen.

[lucanidae25]

I wish it would be that easy by just useing internet contact to run a insect business and teaching the locals everything about collecting insects. Quality control is the most important in running a sucessfull insect business and I think you have to be there yourself to do all the ground work inorder to chieve that. It will take as least 2 to 3 years before you will start receiving anything in return. I would love to visit but I wouldn't want to live there for a few years. Living situation is not the ideal due to uncleanliness, gangs and crime. There are no roads in the most of the mountain ranges, only bush tracks. You will need at least 10 porters to carry everything up the mountain eg: generator, petrol, food water and tents etc etc..........

Plus the locals they have a different way of thinking from must people in other part of the world, they only collect what they need for the day and they will stop collecting. They don't put money in the banks, so there is no point for them to collect more than they need for the day and they are very superstition.

[wollastoni]

"Plus the locals they have a different way of thinking from must people in other part of the world, they only collect what they need for the day and they will stop collecting".

I disagree. Papuan communities I have met (in Baliem valley, Pass valley, Jayapura area and Biak) have a great sense of trade. They sell large quantities of food, tools, "souvenirs", tobacco... on markets. There is a local web of sellers and resellers.

They would be very happy to sell butterflies to IFTA or another organization, every dollar is welcome in this poor country.

IFTA did not close because of bad sales, they have hundreds of customers. They closed because of bad management + political problems.

[lucanidae25]

Olivier

I don't know if you ever tried and get the locals to collect materials at night?
There is no problem to get them to collect during the day but I only collect Coleoptera and most of them are only active at night. Detani has the same problem in Irian and he alway tells me " they are so lazy"

[krupten]

I have been reading the threads of this for some time so I will try to add some grist.

Yes IFTA went down to "mismanagement" however - that is a "generic" term - there were lots of problems but the major one is that there just was NO MONEY in it. They went bankrupt and to go bankrupt should be good enough for anyone to know what the problem really was. They did not get the monetary yield required to financially sustain their business.

Second I know for a fact that it is HARD to collect PNG - the terrain alone is horrendous and to move around is even more so - expensive - restricted and tedious to say the least. However the demand is always for cheap insects. Well the answer is that - right there - there are no truly cheap insects -WHY? NO INTEREST because NO MONEY. They - the collectors - the natives also need to make a living and if it means hacking their forests down to live - they do. No money from a bug then they get it from the tree it fed on.

Third Japan - there are allot of things going on but most of all the Japanese pay good money for insects as they appreciate the work involved to get them. This work is not cheap and when you want remote localities it is more costly! IF YOU WANT IT PAY. You want a vehicle? A beater is cheap - but you want a Bugatti Veyron? you pay. Nobody complains there? So - like the veyron - if you want the rare and the superb you pay - LIKE THE JAPANESE or you will only get the beaters - IF you are lucky.

Natives are lazy according to Detani is an oversimplification. Natives are getting less and less for what they bring in. For example - meridionalis was an expensive butterfly - but as they have found many - now the only way to make money is to measure it and charge more for big ones. Fewer and fewer come out and soon the "easy areas" will be exhausted and then the market will dry up and costs for specimens rise - but the damage is done - the butterfly was wiped out of its locality. The natives do not breed them they rear or ranch but no breeding. You want it cheap - buy it now - as in the years to come the availability will drop and you can have an investment in them. Sure you are contributing to the eradication of the species in any given area - but does that REALLY matter? What Detani says is ONLY half true. The other side of the coin is this and that is that the Japanese and others who go there only take the PRIZES and do not want to buy all. Prudent buying yes but it leaves the collectors with nothing but the dregs to try to sell. That and the "buyers" want to pay less and less so that they make more and more - so here is what the major supplier and collector told me of mouglioni - SHE will not COLLECT ANY MORE - there IS NO MONEY TO BE MADE AND DEALING WITH THE INSECT COLLECTORS IS A WASTE OF HER TIME. SHE DOES NOT WANT THE HEADACHE!!!

<Just as a note - the area in Timika where meridionalis WAS common is NO LONGER an area where meridionalis is abundant any longer - it is GONE>. There is a small project done by Freeport to reintroduce the butterflies DUE THE THE MINING AT TEMBANGAPURA but it is small and NOT COMMERCIAL so there is NO reprieve there. Like Brown River - it is hacked down and raped - but hey YOU HAVE CHEAP MERIDIONALIS!!!>

Costs to collect in PNG and the outer Islands are astronomical! Simply put. You want to find out? Go. Have a look at what a flight costs to get to any area in PNG or the Louisiade or NB, NI, NH, or anywhere there. Then the costs of scaling the mountain the equipment etc. One chap says take a generator - ok only if it is NEW you can take one on a plane - and if its more than 900 watts your baggage allowance is done - so you buy what ? in situ? Ok then it is a higher cost and you leave it there. Expense it sure - but locals do not want to do that. Remember - they do not have access to the net - or markets and insect buyers are far and few between SO WHY COLLECT?? right? They farm and have their animals to care for and families to raise. Why bother catching insects if MAYBE someone who buys INSECT MIGHT turn up - maybe ONCE that year or MAYBE in two? if NOT MORE!!

IN a nutshell - insect collecting is hard work and expensive work and it is now a case of ever diminishing returns. They eventually hit rock bottom and then those who collect look for something better to do to feed themselves and their families. It is like everything - even McDonalds have gotten more expensive - smaller and no longer taste like they used to.

[wollastoni]

You are perfectly right in everything you say Greg.

Today there is only a market for "rare" species. If you find a guy who can collect a rare species regularly, then prices totally collapse and local collectors are undermined.
There is plenty of examples about this fact.
You know as me many "expensive" species that are still sold today as rare on Insectnet but who have been bought very cheap in Asia ... and priced stay artificially high because nobody wants to destruct the market (until someone starts...).

About Detani, I talked with him one month ago. He is still trying to rebuild a network of suppliers in West Papua. He told me he has "trained" a new guy in Carstenz Mts... so maybe we will have new material from there soon.

Lucanidae25 < Papuan are poor people who work very hard in fields or mines to survive... I would never say there are "lazy", I highly disagree with Detani if he told you that.

[lucanidae25]

Olivier

Detani has not only told me that "they are lazy", he also told me other thing but I couldn't even say it here but I know what I heard from him. Getting the locals to collect at night has always been the major problem there.

[wollastoni]

A picture from my last trip in Papua : here you can see how lazy locals are...

Or maybe it is because they carry all our luggages and materials all daylong in high mountains while B. Turlin and me are running after Delias.

Be sure : they are not lazy... or we all are lazier than them...

Attachments:

[lucanidae25]

Olivier

I think if you have to run a insect business like Detani, it would be a different story because the while point of having a business is to make money. If you keep receiving common materials that you can't even sell, I'm sure you would be quite annoyed.

[wollastoni]

Be sure I am quite annoyed not being able to buy rare Delias from Papua anymore, like Detani is. I just not have the same conclusions than him, if he really said that.

[krupten]

HI Olivier and sorry I am not sure who Lucanidae25 is but there is something you both should know. ALL INSECTS in Indonesia are protected and wild insects will and do have a quota. INDESCRIMINATE COLLECTING is strictly against the law. Anything collected for example in West Papua must have a permit to not only collect it - but to ship it to Detani in Bali. He also must be registered and he must make application to the Dept of kehutanan to be able to even have the species to begin with. All specimens for the most part coming out of Indonesia - as you both know it - are all illegal. IF there is truly a Lacey Act in the US - there are few butterflies or beetles etc that are legally collected thererfore - unless there is a transport document - a collectors permit and a signature from the D.OF K they have broken the Law - anyone interested can access the documents albeit in Indonesian off the web but I have the 2010 book here - and I read it and have a sore jaw from it hitting the floor.!!!!

Cheers Greg

[wollastoni]

You are right, LIPI permits are compulsory and very long to obtain.
It is another reason why locals cannot make sustainable business of butterfly ranching... Indonesian government prefer them to cut the forest...

[papilio28570]

Cutting the forest is faster money.

[panzerman]

Greg is correct, and very knowledgeable about the subject. However, we should not that worried about collecting the mainland of Irian Jaya-PNG former German Neu Guinea. Instead collecting teams should concentrate on the surrounding islands like Laurie just proved by going to Goodenough Is., before to New Ireland, New Britain. All these islands like Karkar, Sudest, Rossel, Woodlark, Saint Matthias.....abound with sp., ssp., that MOST people need, also many new taxa that are waiting to be discovered, this would make a lot more sense from a monetary and a scientific endeavour, then to always collect the "same old" places.

John

[lordpandarus]

I don't think hobbyists are too "cheap" to pay a price for specimens that would sustain these dealers.

I think most of us spend "more than they should" on their hobby and are limited by budgets. While there might be some wealthy collectors, most aren't and spend whatever they can on ebay and dealers every month

[lucanidae25]

Geoff

I think you are only looking from your point of view, try and look at the bigger picture from the dealer point of view too. We as collectors is all part of this equation and you will find where you are sitting at. It's all to do with supply and demand.

[timoinsects]

long disscussion.
i think hot collectors have enough ability to pay PNG insects, like me,i don't even have a job yet(soon will),my incomes rely on selling specimens only,i paied on my collection recent each year more than my father's a year incomes regardless the salary here is much less than from western countries.

i FOUND: insect-sale recently set up new arrivals inclued which is a nice cerambycidae of PNG Rosenbergia xenium,but it was "abusent" before,how came appeared again? maybe stored for some time and resetted up on sale now?

the last i added what a australian friend (Qld) he told me about PNG,he lived in PNG for over 7years with his families and moved back to Qld. after PNG got its independentment.

he said:
Few educated people there so things progress slowly it`s a very primitive people and will take many years of education ect to bring this country to a standard of the rest of the world , sometimes I envy their life style of the primitive people , they grow vegetables to eat and hunt ect so life is less complicated and simple , but when the white man comes with all the modern influence everything must change , very sad .
If some of the people there were not so violent now eco tourism would be a fantastic revenue for the country and people .
I loved to live there as a boy and hunt with the natives never a care in the world everything seemed so simple but Independence changed all of that .

[downundermoths]

PNG Independence was in 1975... I lived and worked there from 1981 to 1994...The country has not progressed at all... Violence in the cities, corruption everywhere, tribalism, cronyism, lack of infrastructure and massive unemployment are rife... I believe that that if I could go back in 50 years time this situation will still be exactly the same...
Barry

[putangitangi]

There seems to be a bit of confusion about Papua, New Guinea (PNG) & West Irian.
Papua was initially under the control of the Australians whereas New Guinea was governed in turn by the Germans, then the Australians, the Japanese (in WW2) the Australians again, then both territories joined together as the Territory of Papua & New Guinea - now PNG.
West Irian was run by the Dutch, the Japanese, the Dutch again and after a blatantly-rigged election the Indonesians.
Problems regarding commercial collecting in PNG are manifold. As there is no infrastructure the only way locals could get their insects to market was to post them first to Bulolo or Wau and later to Lae. I lived in PNG and the Solomons for around 15 years and heard many stories about locals waiting up to two years for payment and then getting little or nothing in return, mostly because there was no supervision to make sure the insects were correctly packed and sent to the Collections centre they were often worthless.
West Irian is run a bit differently. Most of traders are either Indonesian military officers or officials, and as there is little or no control from Jakarta, they can do what they like forcing locals to collect insects for a token amount, sweets, tobacco or indeed nothing at all. The jungle on the southern side of the main island is being clear-felled usually by Japanese, Malaysian & Indonesian loggers backed again by the military. Any protests by locals are ruthlessly suppressed. And any criticism by foreigners (particularly those who of us who are not Asian) is dismissed as colonialism.