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Post by wollastoni on Feb 16, 2011 1:38:12 GMT -8
Be sure I am quite annoyed not being able to buy rare Delias from Papua anymore, like Detani is. I just not have the same conclusions than him, if he really said that.
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Post by krupten on Feb 16, 2011 2:10:25 GMT -8
HI Olivier and sorry I am not sure who Lucanidae25 is but there is something you both should know. ALL INSECTS in Indonesia are protected and wild insects will and do have a quota. INDESCRIMINATE COLLECTING is strictly against the law. Anything collected for example in West Papua must have a permit to not only collect it - but to ship it to Detani in Bali. He also must be registered and he must make application to the Dept of kehutanan to be able to even have the species to begin with. All specimens for the most part coming out of Indonesia - as you both know it - are all illegal. IF there is truly a Lacey Act in the US - there are few butterflies or beetles etc that are legally collected thererfore - unless there is a transport document - a collectors permit and a signature from the D.OF K they have broken the Law - anyone interested can access the documents albeit in Indonesian off the web but I have the 2010 book here - and I read it and have a sore jaw from it hitting the floor.!!!!
Cheers Greg
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Post by wollastoni on Feb 16, 2011 3:17:23 GMT -8
You are right, LIPI permits are compulsory and very long to obtain. It is another reason why locals cannot make sustainable business of butterfly ranching... Indonesian government prefer them to cut the forest...
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Post by papilio28570 on Feb 18, 2011 16:28:05 GMT -8
Cutting the forest is faster money.
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Post by panzerman on Feb 19, 2011 5:04:48 GMT -8
Greg is correct, and very knowledgeable about the subject. However, we should not that worried about collecting the mainland of Irian Jaya-PNG former German Neu Guinea. Instead collecting teams should concentrate on the surrounding islands like Laurie just proved by going to Goodenough Is., before to New Ireland, New Britain. All these islands like Karkar, Sudest, Rossel, Woodlark, Saint Matthias.....abound with sp., ssp., that MOST people need, also many new taxa that are waiting to be discovered, this would make a lot more sense from a monetary and a scientific endeavour, then to always collect the "same old" places.
John
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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 26, 2011 11:43:56 GMT -8
I don't think hobbyists are too "cheap" to pay a price for specimens that would sustain these dealers.
I think most of us spend "more than they should" on their hobby and are limited by budgets. While there might be some wealthy collectors, most aren't and spend whatever they can on ebay and dealers every month
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Post by lucanidae25 on Feb 26, 2011 14:25:36 GMT -8
Geoff
I think you are only looking from your point of view, try and look at the bigger picture from the dealer point of view too. We as collectors is all part of this equation and you will find where you are sitting at. It's all to do with supply and demand.
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Post by timoinsects on Mar 22, 2011 10:59:00 GMT -8
long disscussion. i think hot collectors have enough ability to pay PNG insects, like me,i don't even have a job yet(soon will),my incomes rely on selling specimens only,i paied on my collection recent each year more than my father's a year incomes regardless the salary here is much less than from western countries.
i FOUND: insect-sale recently set up new arrivals inclued which is a nice cerambycidae of PNG Rosenbergia xenium,but it was "abusent" before,how came appeared again? maybe stored for some time and resetted up on sale now?
the last i added what a australian friend (Qld) he told me about PNG,he lived in PNG for over 7years with his families and moved back to Qld. after PNG got its independentment.
he said: Few educated people there so things progress slowly it`s a very primitive people and will take many years of education ect to bring this country to a standard of the rest of the world , sometimes I envy their life style of the primitive people , they grow vegetables to eat and hunt ect so life is less complicated and simple , but when the white man comes with all the modern influence everything must change , very sad . If some of the people there were not so violent now eco tourism would be a fantastic revenue for the country and people . I loved to live there as a boy and hunt with the natives never a care in the world everything seemed so simple but Independence changed all of that .
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Post by downundermoths on Mar 22, 2011 14:41:31 GMT -8
PNG Independence was in 1975... I lived and worked there from 1981 to 1994...The country has not progressed at all... Violence in the cities, corruption everywhere, tribalism, cronyism, lack of infrastructure and massive unemployment are rife... I believe that that if I could go back in 50 years time this situation will still be exactly the same... Barry
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Post by putangitangi on Feb 25, 2012 13:44:41 GMT -8
There seems to be a bit of confusion about Papua, New Guinea (PNG) & West Irian. Papua was initially under the control of the Australians whereas New Guinea was governed in turn by the Germans, then the Australians, the Japanese (in WW2) the Australians again, then both territories joined together as the Territory of Papua & New Guinea - now PNG. West Irian was run by the Dutch, the Japanese, the Dutch again and after a blatantly-rigged election the Indonesians. Problems regarding commercial collecting in PNG are manifold. As there is no infrastructure the only way locals could get their insects to market was to post them first to Bulolo or Wau and later to Lae. I lived in PNG and the Solomons for around 15 years and heard many stories about locals waiting up to two years for payment and then getting little or nothing in return, mostly because there was no supervision to make sure the insects were correctly packed and sent to the Collections centre they were often worthless. West Irian is run a bit differently. Most of traders are either Indonesian military officers or officials, and as there is little or no control from Jakarta, they can do what they like forcing locals to collect insects for a token amount, sweets, tobacco or indeed nothing at all. The jungle on the southern side of the main island is being clear-felled usually by Japanese, Malaysian & Indonesian loggers backed again by the military. Any protests by locals are ruthlessly suppressed. And any criticism by foreigners (particularly those who of us who are not Asian) is dismissed as colonialism.
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Post by jackblack on Feb 28, 2012 1:07:35 GMT -8
Insect collecting PNG , intersting subject. I agee with Barry , if we could only go back to the good times . I grew up in PNG as a boy, most wonderful country most wonderful people , life was a paradise and one could go to and fro with no danger. People worked hard for their $`s , would you work on a mountain road with pick and crow bar digging rock for $1 a day in 1974 , I don`t think so . As I grew up in PNG I watched the people and country being exploited by every one that came there and could make a $ or buisiness , as anywhere in the world life goes on and the greed of humanity , I saw collectors come and go visit our small mountainous town Tapini , collectors then were intersted in one thing , how much and as many as they could collect and for as cheaply as possible.It was intesting watching life go by and the changes, now I live in Australia and run an insect buisiness , people say your insects are too expensive , but won`t hesitate to go and buy a bottle of Coke in a store for $4,50 yet complain about price of a beetle at $2.00. Some people think we live in the dark ages and have kids running around collecting insects by the hundreds , well it doesn`t work like that anymore , times change , environement changes , Gov`t regulations change , but people don`t care they want cheap insects , OK some are very common and will always remain cheap easy to catch , but at going at an average wage of $20 per hour if you want good insects better be prepared to pay for them . Also in PNG insect season is the wet season high humidity lots of rain like in Nth Qld Australia , but in remote places like PNG once caught the insect needs to be prepared and curated , I saw collectors come there collect and before they went home their catch was rotten because of the remote terrain , such a waste . Anyway its a long subject and can go on and on . But in PNG think about the people , remoteness hardship and like the old days when I was a kid , if you share what you have the people would give you the shirt off their back to help you. Me I can see how many people can get tired of being exploited for their resourses , a bit like some Governments sucking their people dry for every cent they can get from them for taxes , it only gets worse as the years roll by.
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Post by wollastoni on Aug 20, 2012 9:13:06 GMT -8
Even if you get a LIPI permit to collect in West Papua, do have an Indonesian guide & a Papuan guide who will help you negociate with Indonesian army AND Papuan tribes. Both of them don't care of your "official permits". A good guide will help you negociate the right "fare" for you to collect in each locality. Those NZ climbers don't seem to have the right guide. www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10826846During my trip to W. Papua, thanks to my good guides, I have been welcomed and helped by locals everywhere. Except one place where we escaped without trying to convince them .
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