xavm
New Member
Posts: 15
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Post by xavm on May 23, 2012 4:52:35 GMT -8
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Post by jshuey on May 23, 2012 5:46:41 GMT -8
That's a beauty, isn't it... I bet that there is another gender blender just waiting to be listed next month, but with male forwings this time around!
Interestingly, anyone that knows just a little about insect developmental biology knows that this type of screw-up is not possible.
shuey
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Post by Chris Grinter on May 23, 2012 10:01:46 GMT -8
Actually, I understand that this is possible, just even rarer than a bilateral. We see a lot of bilateral, 1/4 and mosaic morphs - and essentially this is a 1/4 mosaic that happened twice.
In the first cell divisions the left and right side of the insect are differentiated - bilateral split. The second cell divisions splits top from bottom, and this is where both cells simultaneously had an error to create this effect we see. Further cell divisions continue to subdivide the quadrants of the insect - this is where mosaic errors would happen.
Correct me if I'm wrong...
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Post by jshuey on May 23, 2012 11:43:55 GMT -8
Correct me if I'm wrong... I think technically you are correct, but the odds of two such independent transcription errors arising at exactly the correct moment (to create entire wings) in the same bug must be lower than winning the power ball lottery. The odds of glue being involved seem much higher to me.... I notice that the bug was pulled off ebay - don't know what that means exacatly. shuey |
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Post by africaone on May 23, 2012 14:15:46 GMT -8
statistically it is near "zero absolu" something like the square of the probabilty for obtaining a perfect quarter HW gynandro  If interested , ask a right to examine the specimen before ratify the sale. |
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Post by Chris Grinter on May 23, 2012 14:29:04 GMT -8
Yes it seems likely the specimen is faked - a clean break of the abdomen with the hindwings attached can be repaired with almost no sign of glue...
But also keep in mind the seller - Papilio1 - is a reputable seller!
And I do recall having heard of specimens like this before... just never seen a verified image.
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cyane
Junior Member
Posts: 47
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Post by cyane on May 24, 2012 4:07:14 GMT -8
A few years ago I was offered an "Ornithoptera allottei" similar to this. Hindwings of urvillianus and forewings of victoriae. I still have the pic somewhere if anyone is interested.
Around the same time I was offered several different specimens of "gynandromorph" urvillianus. These were all obvious fakes as the abdomen was clearly of only one sex.
One of my friends in the Solomons tried to relax one of these fakes so that better pics could be taken, but when he injected it with hot water the wings on one side fell off lol.
In the last 10 years I have visited the Solomons on three occaisions, and purchased geniune allottei on two of these.
David Hall
Sydney,
Australia
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Post by africaone on May 24, 2012 5:51:37 GMT -8
the technich is yet described in the famous book (a must) "Mes chasses aux papillons" by E. Le Moult. (with Morpho as I remember well)
It was perfected and used in large scale (at least !) in RCA in the 1970's and after.
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Post by thanos on May 24, 2012 6:07:17 GMT -8
'But also keep in mind the seller - Papilio1 - is a reputable seller!' -And well known, too, for his glueing jobs and 'Frankenstein' experiments ;D looooooooooooooooooooooool. I have laughed a lot by watching his listings from time to time. It is entertaining for me to see Saturniids with glued antennas from another specimen/the other sex, even from another species.. ! Also, with abdomens of the other sex like this female A.mittrei with glued male's abdomen : www.ebay.com/itm/Insects-Moth-Argema-mittei-Female-/320899061188?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab71315c4#ht_500wtOr..so many mistakes in the scientific names. Or..the fact that he has been many years in the business and still doesn't know very well-known/common species like these 2 females (f. bisanthe and f. pseudocypris) of Morpho aega on the link below, which he is offering as Morpho species. For many others (e.g. Saturniids, Nymphalids, Pierids), is not mentioned even the family, but only 'butterfly species', 'moth species'. It's strange. www.ebay.com/itm/Insects-Butterfly-Morpho-ssp-2-Female-Forms-A-/320909693830?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab7b55386#ht_500wt_715www.ebay.com/itm/Insects-Moth-Moth-ssp-Male-6-/280869328136?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41651dd508#ht_500wt_715And many other things.. Anyway, I see people have made him so reputable despite all these.. I just tell my opinion  . |
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Post by saturniidave on May 26, 2012 8:46:03 GMT -8
Not even a decent glue job, notice how the hindwings overlap the forewings? LOL
And I agree with Thanos, he does post a lot of bullcrap and misidentified specimens, plus his prices are ludicrous.
And also why is he always selling 'Someone elses collection'?
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Post by Chris Grinter on May 29, 2012 7:01:33 GMT -8
Thanks for pointing that out to me Thanos - wasn't aware of those glue jobs! Looks like he has a bin of broken bits he sticks on whenever he needs them. Repairs from mismatched species/sexes is fraudulent (without clearly stating the reason why it was done), and would cast doubt on all of his other material.
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xavm
New Member
Posts: 15
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Post by xavm on Jun 4, 2012 4:38:27 GMT -8
Hello everyone, I am glad to see my initial post about this fake excited lots of true lepidopterists I tried over the week to glue (wood glue) such a gynandromorph ! male indwings and femal forewings, it worked so easily... I never saw in the nature or during breeding experiments such a gynandro (mosaics, or bipartite righ vs left ok).... Just take care about reputable seller. Cheers Xavier |
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