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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 13, 2011 8:03:33 GMT -8
The difference between chikae and hermeli is on the underside of the forewing. P. chikae has a tornal spot and faint pale internervular stripes above, whereas hermeli has much better defined internervular stripes. Here's a photo to show the difference, hermeli on the left. Adam. PS. They are the same species really, but we don't want to go over all that again  Attachments:
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 13, 2011 8:15:17 GMT -8
No we don't ! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2011 8:27:22 GMT -8
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, comparing them to the photo they are chikae, I did'nt bloody well want chikae they are ten a penny, I wanted hermeli, more money down the drain.
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Post by downundermoths on Oct 13, 2011 13:51:11 GMT -8
...my penny is in the post, Dunc... I will, of course, pay for the shipping... |
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Post by thanos on Oct 13, 2011 16:13:38 GMT -8
Yes we don't want (lol  ). Dunc,your specimens indeed look to be chikae. Adam posted a nice photo set for the comparison of the different undersides,but they readily seemed to be chikae to me once I saw the uppersides of your specimens,without seeing the verso. If it will be proved with further DNA studies that are the same species,I will accept it,too. And yes,chikae's price is lower than hermeli's now.Both species are being bred in large numbers and fresh specimens are offered for sale,despite the fact that chikae is a Cites I. Thanos |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2011 23:32:34 GMT -8
this is hermeli
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Post by thanos on Oct 14, 2011 0:48:54 GMT -8
Yeap, right.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 14, 2011 0:52:30 GMT -8
Yes we don't want (lol ). If it will be proved with further DNA studies that are the same species,I will accept it,too. So identical male and female genitalia (see Page & Treadaway, 2004) don't mean as much as DNA, huh?  Sadly the DNA will not be done due to the CITES red tape. We've just finished DNA analysis of Achillides (paper in press, to be published in Cladistics). Let's not continue this further in the wrong direction.  Adam. |
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Post by thanos on Oct 14, 2011 1:23:29 GMT -8
Adam, genitalia similarity is a good sign ,also cross-pairing experiments would be useful in the further investigation of their status, but DNA studies of a good number of specimens of both,I think that would be the safest and best .
Do you mean that it is impossible to get a permit even for totally scientific purposes like that ? This is really sad.
Thanos
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2011 1:42:27 GMT -8
for these 2 species and this is only my opinion, I have examined enough hermeli/chikae to tell them apart with the naked eye, thats why I straight away thought they were chikae, but of course the data says Mindoro, so even my data labels are wrong now, my female chikae and my females of hermeli are very different both on the upperside and underside, they dont look alike at all, I am so disappointed that they are chikae but I cant send them back now.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2011 1:43:34 GMT -8
hermeli female 1
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2011 1:45:09 GMT -8
hermeli female 2, only an A2 specimen but VERY cheap. Attachments:
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Post by thanos on Oct 14, 2011 2:07:04 GMT -8
Dunc, all of these specimens are very beautiful ! The data of Mindoro for these specimens(the chikae that you got now) is obviously wrong (it should be Luzon). He sold you chikae for hermeli. As you said,they are quite different morphologically in not a few characters.. But lol..don't cry for having got all those great specimens ! And finally,I would like to mention for one more time the hypocricy of Cites, as a lot of freshly bred specimens of chikae are sold at the moment around,while they refuse to give permit for scientific research. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2011 3:54:18 GMT -8
we all know CITES has nothing to do with conservation.
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Post by thanos on Oct 14, 2011 15:28:23 GMT -8
Yes.
Adam,what we would have in case of similar genitalia but big difference in the chromosome number ?
Thanos
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