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Post by thanos on Oct 12, 2011 18:50:40 GMT -8
I recently bought a nice Agrias on eBay from a known Japanese seller of rare Agrias (claudina-neo his ID). I received the specimen quickly and safely,but noticed that it has glue on underside of thorax and on the bases of the wings..I didn't like this,and my first thought was that the specimen was repaired (I bought it as A1), but I put it for rehydration so to check this before contacting the seller. The specimen was not repaired, I removed carefully the glue after rehydration,and I checked the specimen carefully. The quality was Ok,and so I re-spread it and it's now nice and without the glue. So,my question is : Why to put glue on a perfect specimen..? What kind of 'method' is this ? I contacted the seller,he responded me,but I didn't understand..
Below is our communication,you can read it and understand/judge by yourself. Any comments would be appreciated.
I wrote to the seller:
Dear friend,
I received the butterfly safely. It is a very beautiful specimen with much green! Thank you.
Just I have a question : Why did you put glue on the underside of the body of the butterfly ? I re-hydrated it with water, I removed the glue carefully,and I re-mounted the specimen.
Regards,
Thanos
He responded:
Dear sir I use the glue for all specimens. Because I think that my set is completely near. And it is early.But it is difficult to set a specimen again.Please do not buy my specimen if you want to set it by yourself again. I do not change my method. Thank you, and Sorry
And I responded:
Dear sir,
Thank you for your response. I still don't understand why you do this. If a specimen is perfect and it is not rotten for example(so to need to support it with glue), then it's no need for any glue.. I collect insects seriously since the age of 5..,I have received many specimens from many collectors throughout the world,and this is the first time I see this method with the glue. Fortunately I am keen/experienced in spreading,re-hydrating etc..,so I set perfectly the butterfly again,and removed that glue..If you like this method(and also your buyers like it),of course you can keep it. But personally,although I like many of your specimens,unfortunately I will not buy again,because of the glue. I think it is a pitty to trash with glue such beautiful specimens..(I really don't find any reason to do it ,and I think that most collectors will agree with it if I discuss it on insectnet.com, where I am a known member).
Anyway,no problem,but just I think that you have to write this fact (that you put glue) in the description of your specimens..If I knew this,I wouldn't buy. I find that if you call a specimen 'A1' , it is not treated with glue..
Regards,
Thanos
Thanos
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Post by prillbug2 on Oct 12, 2011 19:01:56 GMT -8
Some people glue the bases of the wings, because in the tropics, it keeps the wing from moving upward in the humidity. I have even tried it once or twice, and find that those specimens( mostly moths) didn't pull up or downward during humid summers.They stayed true to the mount. But I usually placed the glue along the base of the wings on the upperside with a pin, and pulling it backwards after it is off the board. It has to be glued after removal, because you could glue it to the spreading board, if you do try it at all. I hope that helps, but I'm not really certain why he glues the underside. I would think that it would be dangerous since the hind angle of the hind wing could be glued to the abdomen from the glue. So, I only use it on moths and only on the upperside, if I use it at all.\
Jeff Prill
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Post by oehlkew on Oct 12, 2011 19:31:41 GMT -8
Just some guesses as to his explanation for the use of glue.
He mentions the specimen is "early" and this might mean that
it had not been on the spreading board for any length of time to sufficiently dry/set to be removed for shipping.
You indicated he supplied the specimen very promptly, and perhaps he also spreads specimens so that dorsal surface is down (many people use that method).
Gluing the "undried" wings on underside of wings and thorax
in a set positin might be a "good" way to hide the
glue from view in a typical display. It might also be a "good" way to get a secure position quickly in a humid environment.
At any rate, you have explained to him that you don't want specimens that have been glued.
For some who want secured specimens quickly, the dorsal down
spreading method and application of glue to ventral surfaces might be fine and might solve some problems. I understand that most people , however, probably would not want glue on specimens.
Bill Oehlke
PS. Perhaps this is an established practice in his area, or maybe he gets better shipping results with specimens treated this way.
Bill Oehlke
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Post by downundermoths on Oct 12, 2011 22:59:23 GMT -8
It is a known method for stopping wing movement after setting.
A well-known dealer/collector advocates this procedure in his 'how to mount' instructions.
I used to often use it for my own specimens, but not any more. PVA glue, well diluted with water, approx 1:3, is carefully and finely placed (with the head of a pin) along the thorax just where the wings attach. If done neatly it is virtually undetectable. The PVA is transparent when dry.
A problem does arise if the specimen needs to be reset for some other reason. I used to use old British setting boards with the 38mm 'continental' pins. This resulted in my specimens being on the lower one-third of the pin. After changing to modern setting boards, I rehydrated and re-set many of my older specimens in order to get them higher up the pin. The ones that had been 'glued' were not too much of a problem as the old PVA mix was water-soluble and still allowed minor adjustments. There was no problem on the setting boards because the 'glue' was on the underside and at the body/wing join...
Barry
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 12, 2011 23:19:19 GMT -8
Yes, glue is often used by collectors of big rhopalo (Charaxinae, Ornitho...) from the tropics.
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Post by thanos on Oct 13, 2011 1:25:23 GMT -8
Thank you all for your input/explanations. I understand now the reasons that he maybe has so to do this method.And he told me that is a usual method in Japan. But because I like my specimens to be 'natural',without any foreign material on them, I can't buy again from this seller.Fortunately the glue he put became quite dissolved just with the water during rehydration(this is a quite rare Agrias variant,and I risked it somehow,but fortunately now I'm more happy with it,as I reset it without the glue). Also,I never put glue on any specimen that I mounted,although I live next to a river and we really have not low humidity here -I just leave my specimens on the boards until they are fully dried,and never had a problem with the position of the wings. But now I understand those who use the method with the glue and,although I don't agree,I respect their decision/preference. We also had good communication with this seller,and understood each other,although he doesn't speak good english(I don't speak them perfectly,too,but quite better): He wrote me: Thank you for good feedback. I think that explanation was insufficient.But the glue is usual in Japan.And I do a thing of a special set.(Sorry,It is difficult to explain it in English.) And I cannot explain my thought for the specimen in English. I'm sorry. And I wrote: Dear friend, all is Ok  . There is no problem. Now I can understand why you put glue. Because : 1. it is 'early' as you said (=you don't leave it many days on the spreading-board to dry,and you put the glue so the wings to stay in the position that you set them). 2. you put glue so the specimen to be more safe during shipping. Just I want the specimens to be 'natural',with no any material on them. And if was not the glue,I would be very happy to buy again from your specimens,because they are really rare and beautiful.. And you are a good person . And I'm happy with the butterfly that you sent me. I set it again and it is really very very beautiful. Thank you and sorry if I made you to feel bad. Best regards, Thanos Thanos PS: I hope he understood my last message   . |
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Post by lordpandarus on Oct 16, 2011 12:03:13 GMT -8
I do this sometimes if it's a specimen that had "jungle rot" and the wings are about to fall off. As soon as it's set I reinforce with glue . I only do this rarely and if nessessary
but it's nice to know it's an "accepted" method to Japanese collectors
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 16, 2011 12:41:27 GMT -8
All Japanese collectors put glue under the wings after spreading their specimens. I think it's to counter the high humidity in the country.
Adam.
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Post by krupten on Oct 25, 2011 21:00:27 GMT -8
Yes that is exactly the reason they do it. Specimens SPRING with the addition of high humidity and heat and as such - if you don't glue them - you are perpetually resetting the specimens and each time you do - you risk damage. IF you have a valuable Agrias for example - imagine the dissapointment of reducing your A1 to B quality at the slip of a hand. I am not sure but for example - in the box did the Japanese chap INCLUDE ANTIDISSICANT? they are the ONLY ones I know that do this. I trade and sell alot to Japan - and they are perfectionists - but they are not ones to redo their work over and over. It is common sense and they do focus on the solution .
I have been to Japan a number of times - and they are very set in their ways - but there is much wisdom in what they do. I do know that one must be very "politically correct" on how you approach a problem or something about their culture and the lines of what is acceptable and thus respected and NOT acceptable and is regarded as insuting is directly related to the amount of how much they have been exposed to Westerners. I visited Surguru Igarashi a number of times in Tokyo (though he lived in Yokohama) and he was very open to all forms of commuication but others were not - though they were all emminent lepidopterists. I made a grave error with Satoshi Koiwaya for example - as I not only debated his description of T.oblongomaculatus ohzui - but also provided a correct argument but NOT in what he considered a reasonable fashion. (IT is difficult to have two subspecies of one butterfly flying symmpatrically - however I am told this does occur in Glossina - tsetse flies in Africa) and then to make matters worse - I produced two more specimens of ohzui - one of which was from Ambon and the other from Ceram. Yes - it was very much a faux pas but I was used to dealing with Suguru and Hiro Sibatani etc - and it was ok for them - but not for Satoshi (Bin). oh well Shigata ga nai! I learned - and very well of my "rudeness" and I have been sorry for it since.
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Post by Khalid Fadil on Nov 9, 2011 18:59:01 GMT -8
Here's another strange collector habit that I don't quite appreciate. Removed abdomens! What's up with that? I mean, sometimes they're nice enough to provide the abdomen along with the specimen, but sometimes the specimen just comes abdomen-less without the abdomen! I don't understand this... Any ideas, good people?
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Post by wollastoni on Nov 10, 2011 0:47:19 GMT -8
They do this to avoid greasing. Some species like Teinopalpus or Morpho have a very greasy abdomen who often stains the wings.
Anyway, I agree sellers should always at least send it along with the specimen.
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Post by saturniidave on Nov 10, 2011 17:48:24 GMT -8
What I hate most is when you get 10 specimens and 10 abdomens separately in a box. Then you have to try and match the right abdomen to the right bug. I got 6 Argema mittrei males like that!  |
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Post by thanos on Nov 10, 2011 18:40:03 GMT -8
Lol, Dave . |
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Post by lordpandarus on Nov 12, 2011 17:14:42 GMT -8
I hate how Morphos look with no abdomens .For the ones I put in my frames I have to find something to replace them in my spare butterfly part box
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Post by thanos on Nov 12, 2011 17:44:20 GMT -8
This is why I almost have stopped collecting Morphos. I want the insect entire and naturally completed. I know to degrease them perfectly in gazoline,so there is no reason for me to remove the abdomens. Sadly almost all the Morpho hunters remove the abdomens.
Thanos
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. There is no problem. Now I can understand why you put glue. Because : 1. it is 'early' as you said (=you don't leave it many days on the spreading-board to dry,and you put the glue so the wings to stay in the position that you set them). 2. you put glue so the specimen to be more safe during shipping.
.
