|
Post by bobw on Sept 26, 2011 5:21:59 GMT -8
We've had these arguments on this forum before; fortunately the worst protaganist seems to have disappeared now.
If somebody wants to keep a specimen without data that is entirely up to them; it's possible that somebody else who just wants something pretty to stick on the wall may also value it. However, it has no scientific value and is useless to any serious collector.
Bob
|
|
|
|
Post by nomihoudai on Sept 26, 2011 9:18:45 GMT -8
If you mean me with that, I am sorry Bob, I didn't want to stir the old "science vs. stamps" pot but from somebody writing (I quote) the following I had different expectations : insectnet.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1079&page=1Anybody is free to collect for whatever reason he wants, but don't say the first and do the latter. At least you are fortunate enough that I have now no further interest in posting in this topic here.
|
|
|
Post by bobw on Sept 26, 2011 10:01:17 GMT -8
If you mean me with that, I am sorry Bob, I didn't want to stir the old "science vs. stamps" pot but from somebody writing (I quote) the following I had different expectations : insectnet.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1079&page=1Anybody is free to collect for whatever reason he wants, but don't say the first and do the latter. At least you are fortunate enough that I have now no further interest in posting in this topic here. I most certainly didn't mean you, from what I've seen of your posts I would guess that you build a collection for the right reasons. I was referring to someone who used to argue vehemently that he didn't see the point of data, but hasn't been seen in these fora for several months now. I can understand why some people might want something pretty to put on the wall so might not be interested in data. However, I would guess that most of us build a collection for its scientific value, and in that case any specimen without data is worthless - I certainly wouldn't have such a thing in my collection. Bob
|
|
|
Post by nomihoudai on Sept 26, 2011 10:32:31 GMT -8
Oh ok Bob ;D Sry for my heated reply,it's late, we are all tired from work Well then I answer Khalids question above now: I didn't want to hurt your feeling, I come to this forum to talk about insects, not to hurt people. Your collection isn't garbage for sure, but please don't offer the dataless specimen to any museum... I have spend the last whole month 40 hours a week sorting out dataless specimen and putting them into the collection for educational purposes. This means children will be free to see and handle these specimen and they will go to waste pretty fast. I am not happy about the situation either but there is nothing else one can do. There is soooo many Actias selene that do have data,... you even got the possibility of catching one yourself in your country, so why spend precious money on it ?
|
|
|
Post by wolf on Sept 26, 2011 13:44:51 GMT -8
havent we got selene selene in norway too!? i think so..anyway the difference between selen and euphrosyne is pretty obvious!, but thats not yuor q, so i dont know why i'm rly saying this EDIT: i knwo why, its becus i want 1 morepoatso i can be titled "GOD" like lepidofrance PS: sry
|
|
|
Post by wingedwishes on Sept 26, 2011 14:49:48 GMT -8
Sorry to hijack here but: Can you think of how a lep with no data can be of value in science?
|
|
|
|
Post by lucanidae25 on Sept 26, 2011 15:59:57 GMT -8
At the end of the day, I like science but science is not for everyone. It's a personal choice. You can't force someone to believe in science if they choose not to.
|
|
|
Post by saturniidave on Sept 26, 2011 16:10:24 GMT -8
A bug can have aesthetic value as well as scientific. Claude, I too have spent many hours sorting dataless specimens in a museum for 'Teaching Aids' as we call them here. But the kiddies love to see and touch them nevertheless so it is not a total waste. Who knows, maybe some of those kids will develope an interest in entomology.
|
|
|
Post by lucanidae25 on Sept 26, 2011 16:26:37 GMT -8
But can a bug have a value of human labour that goes into collecting it? Specimen dosen't collect itself.
|
|
|
Post by saturniidave on Sept 26, 2011 16:28:10 GMT -8
I think so, yes.
|
|
|
Post by lucanidae25 on Sept 26, 2011 16:34:24 GMT -8
Thank you. I think when we are paying for a specimen is mainly for human labour. I don't think we should choose the words like: worthless or worth nothing.
|
|
|
Post by Khalid Fadil on Sept 26, 2011 17:43:27 GMT -8
If you mean me with that, I am sorry Bob, I didn't want to stir the old "science vs. stamps" pot but from somebody writing (I quote) the following I had different expectations : insectnet.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1079&page=1Anybody is free to collect for whatever reason he wants, but don't say the first and do the latter. At least you are fortunate enough that I have now no further interest in posting in this topic here. I actually forgot I said that... Yes, I still go by that quote. But, I can't help it if the specimens I get don't have data. Most of them come from other collectors and its up to them whether they want to throw in data or not. I'm not at liberty to tell them what to do. I don't control the specimens that are sent to me mainly because I trade in mixes. I trade a mix from my collection for another's mix. The ones I catch myself are always equipped with data.
|
|
|
Post by Khalid Fadil on Sept 26, 2011 17:54:57 GMT -8
Oh ok Bob ;D Sry for my heated reply,it's late, we are all tired from work Well then I answer Khalids question above now: I didn't want to hurt your feeling, I come to this forum to talk about insects, not to hurt people. Your collection isn't garbage for sure, but please don't offer the dataless specimen to any museum... I have spend the last whole month 40 hours a week sorting out dataless specimen and putting them into the collection for educational purposes. This means children will be free to see and handle these specimen and they will go to waste pretty fast. I am not happy about the situation either but there is nothing else one can do. There is soooo many Actias selene that do have data,... you even got the possibility of catching one yourself in your country, so why spend precious money on it ? I spend precious money on it 'cause I've never gotten any on my sheets at night... and the only spot I know that's absolutely famous for top-notch light trapping is currently beyond my reach in terms of financials. Malaysia's jungles are indeed very diverse, but they're also deteriorating really fast. Ever since my childhood, I've seen numerous species disappear. I'd see them only once or a few times and then, poof... Usually, as you drive along the highways in Malaysia, you'll have the mountains of jungles accompanying you the whole way (Banjaran Titiwangsa) But, nowadays there's more barren wasteland... and the scars on the faces of the hills from logging are getting larger and larger every year. I've also recently learned that one of my private collecting spots has been bulldozed. I do things for reasons, nomi...
|
|
|
Post by nomihoudai on Sept 27, 2011 9:50:56 GMT -8
@ wolf, Nicolas stop posting when you are drunk You better wait another week to get sober again from that party @ Dave, of course they are not worthless as the children will have their fun... but here a specific and sad example: Staurophora celsia was never reported from my country, the western distribution ends somewhere 300km from here in middle of Germany. I sorted out an old collection by a lady that lived in my country 100 ago and found 2 Staurophora celsia without data. The data of the collection somehow got lost and I was sad as I could not confirm if this species ever was here or not. That's what is annoying me in doing that work. lucanidae25, I wouldn't even want specimen without data for free, so worthless hits the nail. Human labour is only worth as much as somebody is willing to pay for. I too have done work in the past that people had no interest in and so my time got wasted for nothing, it can happen. @khalid why not? Equal stuff for equal stuff, if you offer data you should ask the same or better data in exchange. I always ask people when I trade if they got a GPS or a possibility to determine lat./long., if they say no I ask them if they could try to provide that information by getting a device, if they say no again I tell them that I am not interested in any trade.
|
|
|
Post by maliciousinchworm on Sept 27, 2011 10:48:04 GMT -8
nicolas: Here there existed a post which may have led to a diplomatic argument between Spain and Norway, due to the intermediation of Luxembourg, Spain has to retract from his comments, adding that Norway should get a new book on lepidoptera, one stating the differences of very similar and close related genus such as Boloria and Actias. Spain has spoken.
|
|