Where to get NaCN for collecting kill jars? (In the USA)?

[LEPMAN]

Hello all,

I’m currently in Brazil and recently came across containers of cyanide used for the local gold mining. Question is: how do you collectors that use cyanide obtain it up in the states? I’ve heard of many collectors that use cyanide in their kill jars but I have been unsuccessful at finding a supplier that will sell me some as I am “unqualified”. I thought of bringing some back with me but I feel/know that’s a big no no!

I’m aware that many of you older collectors obtained a bulk quantity of this compound back when you could easily buy it but I’m particularly interested in those of you getting more recently.

I’ve looked at a few papers on mechanisms for the synthesis of NaCN using NaOH to scrub HCN produced via a FeCN and H2SO4 reaction but I thought I’d try seeing if anyone could suggest how I can get this chemical before resorting to the chem lab.

PS: I’m looking to use the NaCN for my kill jars ond moth traps because using cloroform is a pain!

[Paul K]

Jul 25, 2019 13:13:24 GMT -8 LEPMAN said:

Hello all,

I’m currently in Brazil and recently came across containers of cyanide used for the local gold mining. Question is: how do you collectors that use cyanide obtain it up in the states? I’ve heard of many collectors that use cyanide in their kill jars but I have been unsuccessful at finding a supplier that will sell me some as I am “unqualified”. I thought of bringing some back with me but I feel/know that’s a big no no!

I’m aware that many of you older collectors obtained a bulk quantity of this compound back when you could easily buy it but I’m particularly interested in those of you getting more recently.

I’ve looked at a few papers on mechanisms for the synthesis of NaCN using NaOH to scrub HCN produced via a FeCN and H2SO4 reaction but I thought I’d try seeing if anyone could suggest how I can get this chemical before resorting to the chem lab.

PS: I’m looking to use the NaCN for my kill jars ond moth traps because using cloroform is a pain!

You really have guts to want to use cyanid.

[leptraps]

I acquired 25 pounds 40+ years ago. Since 911 it is absolutely impossible to obtain.

I use Ethyle Acetate in my Light Traps.

Please remember this. With NaCN. You will only make one mistake.

[nomihoudai]

Why would you want cyanide? First of all it is dangerous and second of all unnecessary.

For butterflies you don't need any poison at all, you pinch them. Except for really big stuff which you can inject.

For moths I always went with ethyl acetate. It is less poisonous and it works quickly and well with them. It is also available in a lot of places.

For looking up a chemical reaction with cyanide in it you deserve a smack in the head. Hopefully that will bring some reason.

[Adam Cotton]

nomihoudai wrote "For butterflies you don't need any poison at all, you pinch them. Except for really big stuff which you can inject."

Generally pinching is the fastest and easiest way to kill/disable butterflies. Note that pinching doesn't work well with Danainae and Troidini, they wake up and fly off (if not already papered) or try to crawl around in the envelope and damage their wings. Those should also be injected with ethyl acetate.

However, it should be mentioned that ethyl acetate can change the colours of certain Lepidoptera. For example, exposure of many blue Graphium species such as doson and relatives turns them green.

Adam.

[Paul K]

I purchased 2 L of ammonia for $2.00 from department store and it will last forever. I only use this for injection anything and it works with great success. Specimen is not stiffed, doesn’t change colour and dies instantly.

[Paul K]

I don’t pinch Hesperiidae. I just can’t corner them fast enough inside the net before they ruin them selves. I use killing jar and ethyl acetate for them same as for moths.

[leptraps]

I have used Potasium Cyanide for over 50 years. I make four jars every other year or so.

Many years ago I would have a gathering of Lepidopterist at my home to make cyanide Killing Jars.

While employed 30+ years ago, I worked for a company with numerous coating systems and operations. To maintain paint system, they had small Lab's that had vent hoods. I always made my Cyanide Killing Jars under that vent hood.

I just made four new Cyanide Killing Jars in late May. I always tape the bottoms of the jars to prevent the Cyanide from escaping the jars should I drop and break a jar.

Ammonia is safer than Cyanide but not as effective. I dislike Eythel Acetate. On hot days the jars swet and damages the wings. ET can also cause the jar to swet.

Remember, any mistakes with Cyanide are always fatal.

[bobw]

I don't like Ethyl Acetate, I find anything killed with it goes stiff as a board and is very difficult to relax, also as Adam says, it can discolour some species. I pinch butterflies and inject moths with Ammonia, this can also discolour some things if used in a jar but works very well if injected.

[Paul K]

I totally agree about sweat jar and stiffed specimens.
I often just put moths to sleep in the killing jar and as soon as they stop moving I inject them with ammonia.
That prevents the two problems mentioned above. However process is a bit annoying. Skippers I place in the envelopes and then pinch while they’re asleep.

[leptraps]

I went and looked to see how many Kill Jars I have. All are Cyanide Jar. I have four (4) four ounce jars and one large ten ounce dump jar. I also have four (4) 18 ounce jars, currently empty that I clean out after the Lep Soc Meeting in Tucson, AZ. I use the 18 ounce jars for large moths while in SE Arizona for collecting off my Light & sheet set up.

I have tried Vapona, it is to slow. I like the Ammonia Crystals, but I could not handle the smell.

I also tried Calcium Cyanide, it too was very slow.

Whatever you choose as a killing agent, they are all dangerous chemicals. And, they can also take your life as well.

[Cassida]

What about vinegar (into the injection)? Sometimes I use it (without problems). But I collect little butterflies, so I use ethyl acetate more often.

[luehdorf]

I normally use Ethyl acetate but I’d also prefer to use cyanide. I almost never have issues but this summer when I collected Erebiae in Austria, it was very very difficult to dose the ethyl acetate correctly, the wings almost immediately sucked up some ethyl acetate and changed colour or form, and it wasn’t reversible. Pinching Erebiae also wasn’t possible, they are so delicate and fine, and soft, it almost drove me crazy.
In the end I just used tiny amounts of ethyl acetate, and changed the killing jar often, not an ideal process.
But definitely for bigger butterflies the gold solution is to use ammonia, it makes the butterfly so soft, it’s just a pure pleasure to spread.

[gordonsnelling]

I have used potassium cyanide for years, I too always tape the jars. Unfortunately since my father passed away I no longer have easy access to the supplies needed to make the jars. As old as my jars are I am sure they have little life left in them.

[58chevy]

I used to use carbon tetrachloride before it was banned. It killed much faster than ethyl acetate and is much less dangerous than cyanide. It did not discolor my specimens. Unfortunately, it is impossible to obtain at the present time.