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Post by cabintom on Oct 28, 2018 20:24:41 GMT -8
I believe the term you're looking for is "gynandromorph" and if you google that you'll find photos.
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Post by nomihoudai on Oct 28, 2018 23:32:17 GMT -8
cabintom. Chimeras do exist. They are the fusion of two embryos. Sometimes you have an individual with the same sex, but two color forms.
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Post by africaone on Oct 29, 2018 5:22:21 GMT -8
cabintom. Chimeras do exist. They are the fusion of two embryos. Sometimes you have an individual with the same sex, but two color forms. Are you sure that "two colored forms" are chimera ? Isn't the same kind of accident as gynandromorph (a genetic accident during the cells division) ? Chimera are especially labs manipulations. |
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Post by jshuey on Oct 29, 2018 5:51:21 GMT -8
cabintom. Chimeras do exist. They are the fusion of two embryos. Sometimes you have an individual with the same sex, but two color forms. Are you sure that "two colored forms" are chimera ? Isn't the same kind of accident as gynandromorph (a genetic accident during the cells division) ? Chimera are especially labs manipulations. I have a difficult time seeing how an insect embryo "fuses" with another. I go with africaone's answer here. j |
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Oct 29, 2018 6:20:02 GMT -8
I went and checked out Chimera:
(In Greek mythology) a fire-breathing female monster with a lion's head, a goat's body, and a serpent's tail.
I think I have seen these in some numbers in the mountains of eastern Kentucky.
How many do you want?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 29, 2018 6:27:02 GMT -8
I had a chimera Papilio memnon female emerge a few years ago, it was bilaterally split into two different female forms. See photos here:   Adam. |
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Post by nomihoudai on Oct 29, 2018 6:38:00 GMT -8
cabintom. Chimeras do exist. They are the fusion of two embryos. Sometimes you have an individual with the same sex, but two color forms. Are you sure that "two colored forms" are chimera ? Isn't the same kind of accident as gynandromorph (a genetic accident during the cells division) ? Chimera are especially labs manipulations. I fail to see how aneuploidy (non splitting of chromosomes during meiosis) in a non sex determining chromosome could result in a viable embryo. So yes I am sure. There is even one species of invertebrates that does require chimerism and every single specimen is a fusion of two embryos: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC368156/ |
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Post by africaone on Oct 29, 2018 7:13:18 GMT -8
Claude, Are you sure that forms results from events that doesn't depend on a non sexual chromosome ? Why then dimorphism is in most case sexual, and polymorphism attached to one sex (the female). Just a question, I am ignorant in the genesis of the forms in Lepidoptera.
In a certain sense, imagos are a "kind of chimera" (not a true one) as they result in the fusion of different parts of embryo (coming from one cell, the egg)
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Oct 29, 2018 8:04:48 GMT -8
Some of you absolutely amaze me with your knowledge and understanding of Lepidoptera and the process of development.
I would love to see you explain all of this at my local Waffle House.
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Post by nomad on Oct 29, 2018 11:01:25 GMT -8
chimera can also mean "A thing which is hoped for but is illusory or impossible to achieve" (Oxford Dictionary). Rothschild named Meek's discovery Ornithoptera chimaera. It was either a reference to the discovery of such an amazing butterfly or a reference to Meek's state of mind, he was very ill with malarial fever and having all sorts of hallucinations at one point up in the mountains of New Guinea during his expedition, but whether or not he saw a fire breathing monster is unknown.
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Post by nomihoudai on Oct 29, 2018 17:34:49 GMT -8
Claude, Are you sure that forms results from events that doesn't depend on a non sexual chromosome ? Why then dimorphism is in most case sexual, and polymorphism attached to one sex (the female). Just a question, I am ignorant in the genesis of the forms in Lepidoptera. In a certain sense, imagos are a "kind of chimera" (not a true one) as they result in the fusion of different parts of embryo (coming from one cell, the egg) When did I say that? An aneuploidy in a sexual chromosome is a gynandromorph, so if you suggest that a chimera is the same "kind of accident" (your words) we are automatically talking about non sexual chromosomes as a chimera is a single sex specimen. This doesn't make sense as this would be deadly, so this is not what happens. The only thing that could happen would be that you have an X0 embryo in the beginning (female) from a deleterious sperm or egg cell (unlikely), which turns to XX in intraphase, and then splits up incorrectly into X0 and X0 with two different genes (unlikely again). The two more likely scenarios are a mutation in one cell line of the embryo (which for polymorphism is unlikely again as the gene for the color of the specimen is not one gene, but a super gene of multiple loci), or the fusion of two embryos which is not so unlikely (see cats and the above cited example where a whole species depends on it). All these effects are accidents and unlikely. All of them are possible, but as stated, the most likely explanation and way of how it happens is the last one.  |
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Post by africaone on Oct 29, 2018 23:55:19 GMT -8
[/quote] will come later on the other thing When I said a "kind of chimera" is to illustrate what happens during the pupation : an assemblage of imaginal disc that can be viewed as different part of embryo. quoted because they all came from the same original cell (the egg)and not from different embryos. not exhaustive but general pattern. To explain in bad English, not my language. |
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Oct 30, 2018 2:35:48 GMT -8
If I understand what Adam wrote, a Chimera is a female or male with different colors or color and wing patterns LH to RH.
I saw a Colias philodice female with the Left wings yellow and the Right wings whites. Would that be considered as a Chimera?
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