papilio machaon ID need help!

[panzerman]

#1 p. machaon ssp. Koh-i-Baba, Bamian Prov., Afghanistan
#2 p. m. ssp. Liaoning, China
#3 p. m. ssp. Udokan Range, Chita Reg., Russia
#4 p. m. ssp. Chagan-Obo, Saur Mts., Kazakhstan/Russia
#5 p. m. ssp. Chemal, N. Altai, Russia
#6 p. m. ssp. Aktash, SE Altai, Russia
#7 p. m. ssp. Usti-Kamenogorsk, NE Kazakhstan
#8 p. m. ssp. Bayan-Ulegei, NW Mongolia
#9 p. m. ssp. Bulgan-Soman, SW Mongolia

John

[Adam Cotton]

#1 p. machaon ssp. Koh-i-Baba, Bamian Prov., Afghanistan - centralis
#2 p. m. ssp. Liaoning, China - might be schantungensis or hippocrates, I'd like to see a photo (both sides)
#3 p. m. ssp. Udokan Range, Chita Reg., Russia - orientis
#4 p. m. ssp. Chagan-Obo, Saur Mts., Kazakhstan/Russia - centralis (probably the small phenotype called oreinus)
#5 p. m. ssp. Chemal, N. Altai, Russia - orientis
#6 p. m. ssp. Aktash, SE Altai, Russia - orientis
#7 p. m. ssp. Usti-Kamenogorsk, NE Kazakhstan - machaon (gorganus if you prefer)
#8 p. m. ssp. Bayan-Ulegei, NW Mongolia - maybe orientis (if small and dark), but would need to see it to be sure
#9 p. m. ssp. Bulgan-Soman, SW Mongolia - close to centralis (if not like #8, both orientis and centralis occur close to each other in SW Mongolia, orientis at high altitude, centralis at lower localities on the south side of the mts)

Disclaimer: These IDs are based on the information given above, and should not be taken as 100% reliable without access to photos of the specimens (both sides) ;-)

Adam.

[panzerman]

Adam: Thanks for ID!

I will post photos of the questionable specimens.

John

[homard]

I'd agree with Adam's opinion

Alexei

[teinopalpus]

Papilio machaon ssp.?

China, Tibet, around Lhasa, 3700m, 5.6.1999

[teinopalpus]

Same female - underside

[teinopalpus]

Size of female from Lhasa in comparision with normal sized male of ssp.nolico from Nyalam.

And big sorry to John for stole his topic, I hope he will forgive me.

Jan

[Adam Cotton]

Very nice specimen! It is ssp. hookeri (= sikkimensis, a homonym). This is found across the eastern Himalayas to far northern Yunnan, and in reality nolico is probably the same bug.

Note the double black crescent over the hw anal eyespot, which separates this from ladakensis, the other high altitude Himalayan machaon. ladakensis only has a single crescent, like European machaon. I would very much appreciate locality information from anyone who has specimens of these two subspecies. It appears they actually occur very close to each other in Tibet, possibly even the same place, which would be interesting.

Adam.

[teinopalpus]

Adam,

many thanks for your proffesional help.

Jan

[sjo]

I have bought some Papilio Machaon from Deqing Yunnan China, May. 2011, 1200M Altitude. I need help to find out what ssp this is, any ideas?

/Stefan

[Adam Cotton]

Do the specimens have long or short tails? 1200m should be too low for the short tailed hookeri, but data can be unreliable. Can you post a photo of a specimen here?

Adam.

[sjo]

Here is a picture of one of the Papilio Machaon ssp? from Deqing Yunnan China, May. 2011, 1200M Altitude

Attachments:

[Adam Cotton]

Yes, this is a very nice spring form female of ssp. venchuanus, the long tailed subspecies of central and eastern China and up the Yangtze valley.

In the southern part of Yunnan and the Mekong valley is ssp. verityi. These two very long tailed subspecies do not fly high enough to cross from one river system to the other. Ssp. verityi is, in almost all specimens, easily distinguished by the extra black crescent which separates the red hindwing eyespot from the pale blue crescent above it.

Adam.

[sjo]

Great, many thanks