Newbie from New York, looking to get more info on rearing

[diaval]

Hello All,

    I am new here and I just signed up.  I am not sure if this in the correct place, but here goes.

    I have been interested in silk moths and butterflies for a while, but it wasn't until recently when my twin sons reared Painted Lady butterflies when I really started to do my own research into various butterflies and moths.   I initially wanted to look into rearing Monarchs because I remember seeing them around often when growing up and lately I barely see them at all.  I read that there is a shortage of their host plant and that it is a good idea to plant some.   The Monarchs did seem like a logical place to start, but I wanted to find out what else was supposedly in my area.  The next thing that came to mind was the Luna Moth.   I seen one many moons ago upstate NY, but never where I live on Long Island.  In a way I do find moths very interesting and doing more research on the Luna Moth and how the female gives off pheromones to attract a mate, I wondered if I could possibly lure a male in that way.

    I continued to research what else is 'supposedly' in my area and I came up with the following:

    Black Swallowtail, Pipevine Swallowtail, Cecropia, and Polyphemus.

    At least that is what came up as to what I was interested in.

    I am posting to get some general information on rearing butterflies and moths and thus I have a few questions:

    1)  This being obvious...are moths or butterflies easier to raise?
    2)  Out of the various Lepidoptera I mentioned, is any particular one easier to rear?
    3)  I have noticed that most of the moths have a tree for a host plant.  How does one go about that if they don't have the required host plant readily available  (i.e.  having the tree in one's backyard.
    4)  I have read about parasites and diseases....which of the group I mentioned is less prone to this.
    5)  I have read that it is best to rear butterflies and moths in outdoor living conditions, but is there one that would work rearing indoors  (to avoid already mentioned parasites)?

    I would say that out of my personal preference, out of the butterflies, I like the Monarch best and out of the moths, I like the Luna the best.   So if rearing all of the above fall to an even keel (meaning they require the same to rear), then I would go with either of these.

    I figured that it is fairly late in the season and I wanted to get some Luna cocoons on the web to start.   I think my sons would have fun watching them eclose and because it is a silkmoth I don't have to worry about feeding them.   I would hope to get a female and then try to 'call' a male with her.    I mainly want to see if I DO have Luna moths in my area.   But should I find a male then comes the question of mating and then finding a host plant.

    At any rate I am just looking for some advice in what direction to head.   I hope to hear from someone that is close to where I live, which is Babylon, Long Island (NY).   Hearing from someone here would give me a good idea of what is around in terms of moths and butterflies and also what I should do in terms of providing host plants.

    I will mention that I am living in a rental apartment, but it is a duplex and I do have a  yard.  I am on the first floor and so far the people upstairs do not use the yard.  I am sure I could secure permission from my landlord to plant small plants in the yard, such as Milkweed for the Monarchs, but reading up on the host plants for Luna Moths...they are all trees.  I am not sure if my landlord would allow that, so I am wondering if any of the tree hosts could be planted and maintained as a bush (preventing from growing tall).

    I do not have any gardening experience AT ALL, so I certainly would need help here.

    In general, any advice tips and pointers would be appreciative.  


    Thank you,

    Diaval

[oehlkew]

Here is an article I wrote about rearing Actias luna. They would be a good starter if you want to try rearing Saturniidae.
www.silkmoths.bizland.com/Actiaslunarearing.htm
Bill Oehlke

[diaval]

Jul 29, 2016 9:26:28 GMT -8 oehlkew said:

Here is an article I wrote about rearing Actias luna. They would be a good starter if you want to try rearing Saturniidae.
www.silkmoths.bizland.com/Actiaslunarearing.htm
Bill Oehlke


Thank you very much.  I am leaning towards the Luna as is since it was recommended as a good place to start and it is such a beautiful moth to begin with.   I already seen and saved that page into my Lepidoptera folder on my computer as it was recommended to me prior to my signing on board here.  But it is nice to meet the author and I am assuming if I have further questions on that article, I can as here?

Diaval

[oehlkew]

You can ask here or can contact me by regular email. I have a small public website at
www.silkmoths.bizland.com/cocoons.htm where my email is posted.

[diaval]

Jul 30, 2016 14:29:11 GMT -8 oehlkew said:

You can ask here or can contact me by regular email. I have a small public website at
www.silkmoths.bizland.com/cocoons.htm where my email is posted.

Thank You I will go and take a peek!


To All:  Oh!  Can anyone recommend a good book as well?   Also, I am interested in butterflies too such as Monarchs and Swallowtails.

[bluemoth]

Welcome Diaval. The butterfly book I like is Butterflies Through Binoculars by Jeffrey Glassberg - there is an eastern US one. The next book is expensive but covers all silk moths of the USA in great detail - The Silk Moths Of North America by Paul M. Tuskes, James P. Tuttle and Michael M. Collins.

When I was young starting to rear leps I collected every larva I could find from trees and plants in my yard. I lived near a bog that had a stream running through it and the bug life was abundant in the area. I found Monarchs on our wild milk weed and every year Mourning Cloaks would lay eggs on the tree at the end of the drive way. I found many small moth larva, tomato horn warms and once a huge Luna Moth lava on a low tree branch. Now I live in a different place not so good for leps. Best areas here to collect are now protected. So now I only rase Buckeye Butterflies that have turned out to be very easy and fun. Easy to get eggs from wild adults, rear and keep youg hatched butterflies in cages that will breed and give you more eggs to rear. I play around with the genes by putting similar looking butterflies together. I get some interesting mutatins like ones with three eyes instead of the normal two on the rear wings. I guess what I am saying start with what you can find to rear in your yard or nayborhood. Little leps can be just as fun as the big fancy ones.

[diaval]

Aug 2, 2016 8:38:58 GMT -8 bluemoth said:

Welcome Diaval. The butterfly book I like is Butterflies Through Binoculars by Jeffrey Glassberg - there is an eastern US one. The next book is expensive but covers all silk moths of the USA in great detail - The Silk Moths Of North America by Paul M. Tuskes, James P. Tuttle and Michael M. Collins.

When I was young starting to rear leps I collected every larva I could find from trees and plants in my yard. I lived near a bog that had a stream running through it and the bug life was abundant in the area. I found Monarchs on our wild milk weed and every year Mourning Cloaks would lay eggs on the tree at the end of the drive way. I found many small moth larva, tomato horn warms and once a huge Luna Moth lava on a low tree branch. Now I live in a different place not so good for leps. Best areas here to collect are now protected. So now I only rase Buckeye Butterflies that have turned out to be very easy and fun. Easy to get eggs from wild adults, rear and keep youg hatched butterflies in cages that will breed and give you more eggs to rear. I play around with the genes by putting similar looking butterflies together. I get some interesting mutatins like ones with three eyes instead of the normal two on the rear wings. I guess what I am saying start with what you can find to rear in your yard or nayborhood. Little leps can be just as fun as the big fancy ones.

Hello Bluemoth,

Thank you for the tips on the books...however that second one is being sold by private sellers for over $1000 (or more).  No thanks.  I don't even think I even spent $100 on a book.  I was thinking more along the lines of this:

www.amazon.com/dp/158017292X/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2PZFUWB7KZL6V&coliid=I1MB6TEVNBVQL5

or

www.amazon.com/dp/1620062461/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2PZFUWB7KZL6V&coliid=I1RBJJUVCPTZUK

So far I have not found one that grabs me in terms of raising silk moths.  Your suggestion might be good, but lets just say it is a WEEEE bit out of my price range.  LOL!

I did the same thing when I was younger, but the most I could find in the summer were the gypsy moths as they were all over the place.  Also in abundance was the Cabbage White Butterfly.  TONS of those.  They are all over Long Island.   Seeing a Monarch was a treat when I was younger as you didn't see many of them.  But this has gotten worse over the years and now I am lucky if I find one in a 5 year span.   Although, last year, my sons said they saw one in the yard.   Given that I have read that Luna Moths are in my area, I have yet to see one here on Long Island.   What I hope to do is to get a female Luna and put her in a cage and see if I can attract a wild male.   That would be proof that they are here.   I live near a park with lots of trees and that park extends down to my street and is adjacent to my son's school and we live across the street from the school.   So with the variety of trees in there...if there are Lunas in there, I would know very quickly with a female moth.

Wow!  Those Buckeye butterflies are really nice.   I guess they are about the size of a Painted Lady?   Could they be reared from a medium?  If not, what is their host plant?   Yeah, usually I like the larger leps such as the Monarch Butterfly.   (I have to get some milkweed seeds soon!)   The Swallowtail, and of course the large silkmoths such as the Polyphemus,  Promethea, Cecropia and the Luna.  The Luna is my favorite of the four, but I wouldn't mind giving North America's largest moth a go eventually.

Do you raise moths too besides the  Buck Eyes?

Thanks!

Diaval

[bluemoth]

Wow did not know that silk moth book was so expensive now!! I got mine soon after it came out for $80. I do not use an artificial food for Buckeyes. I feed mine on a weed called Plantain. The larva feed on 50 plus plants in the US so you should be able to find a host plant near you. I am not rearing silk moths right now but have reared at lest 6 species of silk moths and many medeum and small moths. I have reared more than 10 species of butterflies that live in my area over the years. A few times I have reared Monarchs on artificial diet and it worked well. Keep in mind not all diets work well so if you want to try this get one that has been proven to bring larva to pupation and hatch. You can get diets for some kinds of horn worms and may be a cuple of silk moths? Folks are inventing new diets all the time so keep on the look out. Getting back to the Buckeyes they are so easy to rear. I rase my lava in sealed bags or contaners till around third instar. They seen to do better with a little extra humidity during that time. By forth instar move to a shooe box or other plastic box. Put paper towl in bottom with a few leaves on top. clean out box as needed. New hatched butterflies can be placed in a cage as small as about one foot be one foot and they will still breed and lay eggs. Males are ready to breed at 3 days old, females between 5 and 7 days old. My cages are made out of card board boxes with screen windows. Pipe cleaners are used to secure the door. Butterflies are put in full sun all day long. Provide shade on corner of cage if it gets hotter than 75. Surgar water is equle parts organic cane surgar and fructose mixed with about 3 parts water. Leaves are placed in bottom of cage, the Buckeyes will find them. Some times they will lay eggs on the screen. Let me know if you need any more help.

[diaval]

Aug 3, 2016 10:58:06 GMT -8 bluemoth said:

Wow did not know that silk moth book was so expensive now!! I got mine soon after it came out for $80. I do not use an artificial food for Buckeyes. I feed mine on a weed called Plantain. The larva feed on 50 plus plants in the US so you should be able to find a host plant near you. I am not rearing silk moths right now but have reared at lest 6 species of silk moths and many medeum and small moths. I have reared more than 10 species of butterflies that live in my area over the years. A few times I have reared Monarchs on artificial diet and it worked well. Keep in mind not all diets work well so if you want to try this get one that has been proven to bring larva to pupation and hatch. You can get diets for some kinds of horn worms and may be a cuple of silk moths? Folks are inventing new diets all the time so keep on the look out. Getting back to the Buckeyes they are so easy to rear. I rase my lava in sealed bags or contaners till around third instar. They seen to do better with a little extra humidity during that time. By forth instar move to a shooe box or other plastic box. Put paper towl in bottom with a few leaves on top. clean out box as needed. New hatched butterflies can be placed in a cage as small as about one foot be one foot and they will still breed and lay eggs. Males are ready to breed at 3 days old, females between 5 and 7 days old. My cages are made out of card board boxes with screen windows. Pipe cleaners are used to secure the door. Butterflies are put in full sun all day long. Provide shade on corner of cage if it gets hotter than 75. Surgar water is equle parts organic cane surgar and fructose mixed with about 3 parts water. Leaves are placed in bottom of cage, the Buckeyes will find them. Some times they will lay eggs on the screen. Let me know if you need any more help.

Yep!  $80 is even expensive, but when I saw that price, my jaw hit my desk and I almost fell out of my chair.   I wasn't sure if you could use medium, I figured because they were small like the Painted Ladies that they might be able to be raised on a medium.  Wow!  So the Buckeyes can feed off of 50 different plants?  That's amazing.   I didn't know you could raise Monarchs on anything but a Milkweed plant...let alone a medium.  Oh yeah, I would try something that has been proven that works.   

Oh, so even moths can be raised on medium?  Can the Luna be raised like this?

I can see why you like the Buckeyes...I wasn't expecting them to be that pretty.  They are certainly nicer than the painted ladies. So they are fine in a small cage like that?   Interesting that you make your own cages out of cardboard.  Do you have pictures?  YouTube link?

Great!   I would love to see some video on that if you have a YouTube account.  I definitely want to learn more about that Monarch artificial diet even though I still intend to plant some Milkweed outside.

But thank you for the information.

Geo                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

[mothman27]

I too am curious to see the cardboard cages. I am looking into rearing red spotted purples and white admirals.

[bluemoth]

I found a nice selection of artificial lep diets at the Online Science & Nature Store. That is ware I got the Monarch Diet years ago. I beleave all their diets are good ones. Phone is 281 554 9783.

I do not have video or photos of my cages. Here is how I make them : cut a door on lower side of box (basicly 3 sides of a square or rectangle is cut with knife)and bend back - two to three sets of two small holes are punctured in both sides of open end of door, insert pipe cleaners in to holes on door, one pipe cleaner for each pair of holes, do same on other side but make a loop with each pipe cleaner. Now cut big openings in other three sides and on top of box - leave one to two inch edges around openings, get some flexible window screen at your locale home and garden supply store, get some brads at the office supply store, ( at this stage before adding screen if you want to make the bottom of box water proof use dubble sided tape to stick plastic sheeting to bottom and sides belowe windows) now poke small hales along edges of windows place screen cut to over lap edges and secure with brads. Optinal - pait box with acrylic paint - this paint is non toxic.

Just keep in mind other spices of butterflies that are collected for egg laying need to have host plant leaves or branches touching top of cage.

[diaval]

Aug 3, 2016 17:35:01 GMT -8 mothman27 said:

I too am curious to see the cardboard cages. I am looking into rearing red spotted purples and white admirals.

It's amazing what you can do with cardboard.  I actually made speaker enclosures out of cardboard and they sounded good!

[diaval]

Aug 4, 2016 7:58:37 GMT -8 bluemoth said:

I found a nice selection of artificial lep diets at the Online Science & Nature Store. That is ware I got the Monarch Diet years ago. I beleave all their diets are good ones. Phone is 281 554 9783.

I do not have video or photos of my cages. Here is how I make them : cut a door on lower side of box (basicly 3 sides of a square or rectangle is cut with knife)and bend back - two to three sets of two small holes are punctured in both sides of open end of door, insert pipe cleaners in to holes on door, one pipe cleaner for each pair of holes, do same on other side but make a loop with each pipe cleaner. Now cut big openings in other three sides and on top of box - leave one to two inch edges around openings, get some flexible window screen at your locale home and garden supply store, get some brads at the office supply store, ( at this stage before adding screen if you want to make the bottom of box water proof use dubble sided tape to stick plastic sheeting to bottom and sides belowe windows) now poke small hales along edges of windows place screen cut to over lap edges and secure with brads. Optinal - pait box with acrylic paint - this paint is non toxic.

Just keep in mind other spices of butterflies that are collected for egg laying need to have host plant leaves or branches touching top of cage.

I am not sure if this is the same place, but when I searched for 'Online Science and Nature Store', this is what my computer spit out:

www.educationalscience.com/index.php/butterfly-breeding-supplies.html

I just navigated to Insect Diets and found this:

www.educationalscience.com/index.php/insect-diets/monarch-diets.html

Hmmmm, they do not recommend it for beginners though. 

That is an interesting way to make a 'cage'.  I guess if you are doing ALOT of breeding then it would certainly be cost effective.   I was going to ask about cleaning, but you mentioned 'coating' the bottom.  I figure that would be necessary for removing frass.  I guess those 'file boxes' they have at Staples would probably be good for this.

Well, with the Monarchs I would want to learn to do it both ways as I do want to have the Milkweed outside and hopefully attract wild Monarchs.  Have you ever used an artificial medium on moths?

Thank You,
Diaval

[bluemoth]

You found the rite place. I think as long as you have reered some leps all ready and can cook a little you can use the lep diets they sell. You take out the amount of powder you need, add water, boil, then pour in clear plastic cups. It has geliten in it and when cooled and firm put the larva in and cover top with coffee filter. Extra cups with diet in them can be stored in zip lock bag in refige for a week. When Larva are new hatched you just need a tiny bit of diet on the bottom. Add more diet in new fresh cups as they grow. Do not reuse cups. Remember to separate larva into their owne cups by forth instar. I tried rearing Painted Ladies once on a cooke crumble diet - did not work so good. Get the geliten based ones.

I do not use file boxes for my cages. I use just your basic box that stuff gets shipped in to stores. Find some card board resycalling dumpsters or ask a store to save some boxes for you. I work at a place that gets a shipment of product once a week and plenty of empty boxes of every size you can imagin. The plastic sheet on the bottom is just used to water proof the box. Put news papers or paper towl on bottom to catch waste and change when needed.

I have not used a diet with moths. May be some one els out there has used one with moths that would like to leave a comment?

[diaval]

Aug 5, 2016 8:04:07 GMT -8 bluemoth said:

You found the rite place. I think as long as you have reered some leps all ready and can cook a little you can use the lep diets they sell. You take out the amount of powder you need, add water, boil, then pour in clear plastic cups. It has geliten in it and when cooled and firm put the larva in and cover top with coffee filter. Extra cups with diet in them can be stored in zip lock bag in refige for a week. When Larva are new hatched you just need a tiny bit of diet on the bottom. Add more diet in new fresh cups as they grow. Do not reuse cups. Remember to separate larva into their owne cups by forth instar. I tried rearing Painted Ladies once on a cooke crumble diet - did not work so good. Get the geliten based ones.

I do not use file boxes for my cages. I use just your basic box that stuff gets shipped in to stores. Find some card board resycalling dumpsters or ask a store to save some boxes for you. I work at a place that gets a shipment of product once a week and plenty of empty boxes of every size you can imagin. The plastic sheet on the bottom is just used to water proof the box. Put news papers or paper towl on bottom to catch waste and change when needed.

I have not used a diet with moths. May be some one els out there has used one with moths that would like to leave a comment?

Nope!  Haven't reared anything so far.  I am a total newbie.  I been doing quite a bit of reading and there is a fellow in Jersey that is rearing Luna's and I want to get some cocoons from him when they are ready.  I figured it would be cool to have a few Lunas flying around the house.  My boys would get a kick out that. 

I usually get lots of boxes from Amazon orders.   Same here, my place of business always gets something in every week. The newspapers or paper towel sounds like a good idea.  I am definitely into a fast cleanup.

Oh!  I saw a Black Swallowtail today.  It flew over my car on the way home from work.  Bummer I was driving and couldn't check it out.   I knew it was a big butterfly, but not a Monarch as it was mostly black.