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Post by birdwings123 on May 9, 2014 16:52:11 GMT -8
Hello everyone, Sometimes ago I took specimen of urvillianus labelled as from San Cristobal. Are urvillianus actually come from this islands? never seen one before which come from the same locality until now. Helps for identifications will be very much appreciated  .  |
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Post by nomad on May 10, 2014 7:31:42 GMT -8
Interesting. According to D' Abrera and Matsuka, urvillianus is absent from this island.
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Post by nomad on May 10, 2014 7:34:09 GMT -8
I believe most of the populations that occur in the Solomons are quite variable.
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Post by Adam Cotton on May 10, 2014 11:32:14 GMT -8
Where did the specimen come from? I think the best clue to whether it is genuine or not is the reliability of the supplier(s - if it passed through several sellers).
Adam.
PS. By 'where' I meant which collector/dealer rather than which place.
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Post by ash on May 11, 2014 14:27:42 GMT -8
Hi,
I have no records of Ornithoptera priamus urvillianus from San Cristobal either. I think it would be very difficult to identify which island in the Solomon Islands your specimen came from as it has collective features found throughout the Islands with urvillianus. I have several specimens from Buka Island and from various locations in South Bougainville Island that are very similar to your specimen.
Like Adam said - the more dealers and collectors hands a specimen goes through, the chances are the less reliable the data becomes. A specimen only has to be repacked in the wrong envelope accidentally once while people are perusing stock and - oops - the correct data trail is lost. Also there are unfortunately, as has been pointed out before, unscrupulous people who will make up data on specimens lacking data, or who will make up 'better priced' data for common locations. It is a shame that this happens.
Nonetheless it is a lovely specimen of a lovely species.
Ash
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cyane
Junior Member
Posts: 47
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Post by cyane on May 11, 2014 15:47:01 GMT -8
When I was in the Solomons in 2003 I met a butterfly dealer whose hometown was Makira, San Cristobal. He told me that he had introduced urvillianus to the Makira area in the hope of obtaining allottei. He told me that the introduction was successful.
I dont know if your urvillianus is really from Cristobal though. Some Solomons dealers are very unreliable.
Also genuine mistakes can be made: for instance a farmer came to my hotel room in Honiara with 10 pair of O victoriae. He told me he was from Maramaseke. As I always did I got out my maps and asked him to show me where his village was. Sure enough his village was on Maramaseke, but then he pointed to the mainland of Malaita, just across the channel from Maramaseke and said "but my farm is here". So now I have 10 pairs of victoriae from the extreme southern end of Malaita which may be enough to show a cline from the North of Malaita through to Maramaseke. The only problem is I havent set them because I dont have the space !
David Hall
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Post by timmsyrj on May 12, 2014 5:22:11 GMT -8
Makira is not a village, it is the new name of San christobal island I believe.
Rich
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Post by birdwings123 on May 12, 2014 5:43:34 GMT -8
Hello all, thank you very much for the reply. I think the data can be wrong or swap with other specimens. But this urvillianus can also be possible that it come from another island and introduced to the San Cristobal?
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Post by exoticimports on May 12, 2014 8:49:40 GMT -8
Makira is the local name of San Christobal island.
Urvilleanus has never been reliably reported from Makira/ SC. I had never seen one there, though they are quite common on other islands, including Guadalcanal.
It is highly unlikely that at some, or many, points in the past urvilleanus did NOT make it to Makira. Why it failed to establish is a mystery.
Note also that the main airport Kira Kira is quite a distance from the western end of Makira. And, there is not much of a population on the west end, and it is very remote. And collectors are rare there- I don't personally recall anyone mentioning that they had been to the west end of Makira. So it could very likely be on the west end, and nobody knows.
Besides which, "not there" and "not caught yet" are two different things. John Tennent insisted that he'd spent months on Makira and there were no polyura jupiter on Makira- that is, until I dropped the fresh female specimen caught at the KK airport in front of him!
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cyane
Junior Member
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Post by cyane on May 13, 2014 17:37:02 GMT -8
Hi Rich and exoticimports. Yes you're right. I should have said Kira Kira of course.
Like exoticimports, I too wondered why urvillianus was never found on San Cristobal. But Straatman was there and discovered and bred victoriae epiphanes. One would have thought that if urvillianus was there he would have found it.
Also the local dealer from Kira Kira is quite knowledgeable and breeds victoriae, erskinei etc, yet he was adamant that there were no urvillianus, hence his introduction. He's still around and sometimes advertises here on insectnet, so I'll email him and see if urvillianus is still present on San Cristobal.
David Hall
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Post by exoticimports on May 14, 2014 7:01:10 GMT -8
A couple things to consider:
1. A few years ago a new species of bug was found. In the lunch courtyard at BMNH. So "being there" doesn't mean you see everything.
2. I've been to Makira three times. I have never seen a male Victoria. The number of erskinei I've seen is less than five.
3. Makira is like saying "Jamaica". It has multiple zones, stretches a long way. Given the often local commonality of many species, visiting Makira is no guarantee you'll find a given species.
4. Tennent spent quite some time on Makira; you already know the jupiter story. I also dropped on him a previously unknown lycaenid, which was captured not far off the main road only 5km from Kira Kira. So even Straatman being there is no guarantee of anything unseen.
5. Except for a few clicks either direction from Kira Kira there is no roadway on the island. In fact, much of the coast even is uninhabited, and certainly 95% of the interior. I'm sure there are all sorts of new bugs there. While technically impossible, if you wanted to "disprove" urvilleanus on Makira you'd have to walk the entire shoreline...good luck.
The local dealer is just that, a dealer. He doesn't do any bush hiking or research.
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Post by nomad on May 14, 2014 11:55:26 GMT -8
I have never been to the Solomons, but I have been told that urvillianus is widespread on most of the other Islands, one would have thought that such a reasonably common and large spectacular butterfly such us this would be widespread on San Cristobal too if it occurred there. When Straatman was breeding victoriae here, he certainly would have observed this species, they favour the same habitat I believe. Just some thoughts.
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Post by birdwings123 on May 14, 2014 16:01:59 GMT -8
Hi all, thank you for your explanation, I had read several books of a friend of mine, which states the urvillianus didn't come from San Cristobal as well, but as I remember they were occur in Ulawa Islands. Are both San Cristobal and Ulawa are quite nearby islands?
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cyane
Junior Member
Posts: 47
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Post by cyane on May 14, 2014 17:49:18 GMT -8
All of the literature points to the fact that urvillianus has never been taken on San Cristobal (aka Makira) However exoticimports makes a good point that it has been little explored, entomologically speaking (and in most other ways). I believe all of the victoriae epiphanes that have been obtained in recent years (since 2000 at least) have come from the dealer I mentioned and his "helper" in the region of Kira Kira. I dont know why urvillianus isnt present there. Maybe a geologist could help us (Chris Muller are you reading this ?).
The real problem is that even if urvillianus is confirmed to be on San Cristobal now, we will never know if these are naturally occuring or are there because of the introduction by the local dealer.
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Post by ash on May 14, 2014 19:15:53 GMT -8
Hi,
I am speculating here - but perhaps the absence from of Ornithoptera priamus urvillianus on Makira Island (the easternmost big island in the Solomons Archipelago) is a hangover from a western mainland PNG origin of this lineage? As O.p.u.'s ancestor entered the Solomon Islands it may have made a slow migration down the Solomon Islands archipelago (into the wind mind you!) and it mayn't have reached or reached and established on Makira Island. David they are not on Rennell Islands or any of the tiny islands east of Makira are they?
Perhaps the (significantly older) Ornithoptera victoriae lineage reached Makira Island first?
Also I agree with the statement that absence of specimens doesn't mean much: 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'!
It is interesting.
Ash
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