Dispatching larger moths

[antheatre]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone here would care to share their methods of dispatching Sphingids/Saturnids in preparation for mounting? Due to their larger bodies I would think that a kill jar/container would be impractical since it would take longer for a specimen to succumb to the fumes, in addition to the likelihood of destroying itself in the process.

Regards,
Ryan

[prillbug4]

I don't much problem killing larger moths with a killing jar. My jars are little death chambers. I keep them open, with a paper towel blotter on the bottom, where I pour the ethyl acetate, and then push a large wad of cotton into the jar. Most of my moths are dead or dying in seven minutes. When I was in Belize, they were dead in 6 minutes, and I transferred them into a dump chamber, a tupperware with a wad of cotton soaked with ethyl acetate. Of course, it keeps the jars clear of specimens.
Jeff Prill

[Deleted]

With larger moths I simply inject them using a hypodermic syringe/needle with isopropyl alcohol. One injection in the ventral thorax between the legs does the trick and they are dead in seconds. They usually die while I'm still holding them in my hand. I use 90% alcohol when I can get it, but 70% does real well too.

Frankly I agree that using jars can have damaging results with wing-beating. Try the injection.....you'll like it.

[bichos]

Aug 24, 2012 20:18:40 GMT -8 billgarthe said:

Frankly I agree that using jars can have damaging results with wing-beating. Try the injection.....you'll like it.

Yes I totally agree, larger moths would damage their wings before they succumb to the killing agent, I even use a syringe to kill larger beetles. Besides, you need a pretty big jar for saturnids and the like and it would thus be impractical.

[africaone]

For big moths, I use small serynge (insuline) with ammoniaque (drugstore one) for 30 years.
the best results comparing any other espacially alcohol.
1 drop is enough injected in the head near as possible the head !

[bobw]

I agree with most of the correspondents here. The best way is a small injection of ammonia in the thorax; I use ordinary household ammonia and it kills them instantly. If you're at home freezing is also a good method, but hardly practical in the field.

I would never use killing jars. They're bulky and heavy to carry, and I don't think I've ever had a bug that hasn't damaged themselves in one. For me, the easiest way to kill small-bodied specimens such as butterflies in the field is pinching.

Bob

[antheatre]

Thank you all for your input. I will give each method a try.

For the at-home freezing method, would you place the specimen in a ziploc bag/glassine envelope with wings folded up or in their at-rest position?

I've been raising leps here and there throughout the years, but I am fairly new to the mounting of insects. I'm eager to try my hand at this. Thanks again for all your input.

Regards,
Ryan

[prillbug4]

Actually, you don't get perfection from injection. When you hold the moth in your fingers, you are removing scales from the side of the thorax, and also the wings might flap upwards and dislodge more scales from the underside. I know, I 've tried it, and was not always thrilled with the results, especially, when the alcohol leaks through the malpighian tubes and discolors the specimen. I've had that happen numerous times. I prefer the killing jar, because I can turn it into an open gas chamber. As for carrying them, I use a photographer's camera case. I can get four killing jars and 20 vials for beetles into it, plus I can also include several hundred glassine envelopes. It only weighs about 8 pounds, and most people think that I'm a photographer when I carry it. This is from forty years of doing this.

[africaone]

i use injection of ammonia only for the big ones or smaller that are quiet on the hunting sheet. many of the bigs are quiet on the hunting sheet and easy to inject without touching them. Injection is a technic that require some experience to be done safely.
For the smaller I used killing jar (with éthyl acetate). espacially those impossible to inject (too exited, small, etc.).
The best way is to use the two in the field and choice the best for each case. (Killing jars is a lot of work as you need to have a few of different volumes and enough if you catch many things)

[prillbug4]

For large volume killing, it's better to have a dump container. Injection is not practical for me, since I can collect over two hundred specimens per night. I don't want to inject all those moths and beetles. It's too much work.
Jeff Prill

[dertodesking]

Aug 24, 2012 20:08:12 GMT -8 prillbug4 said:

Most of my moths are dead or dying in seven minutes.

Jeff,

I'm glad you're happy with your method and certainly wouldn't attempt to change your opinion - after all I'm a great believer in the old adage of it being "horses for courses"!

However, I'd worry that if the moth/whatever was alive for six/seven minutes in the killing jar it could move and do much more damage by beating it's wings than I'd ever cause by holding for a swift injection. I also use pinching in the field to dispatch my smaller catches and I suppose, arguably, one could say that this would remove some scales...but if it does I've found it to be so minimal as to be un-noticeable in my mounted specimens.

Just my thoughts...

Simon

[prillbug4]

Actually, I have very little or no damage, unless the insect has already been damaged in the field. The cotton in the jar gives them something to hang onto, and I place the jar back in my photography case and keep them in the dark until they die. And no, they do not burrow into the cotton. After I've used the jars, I empty them into the dump container. Most moths are stunned after three minutes, because I pour the ethyl acetate onto the paper towel blotter and use a little more than I should sometimes so that nothing survives for long.
Jeff Prill

[58chevy]

I use the same method as Jeff. I don't use needles because if the police question what you're doing out in the middle of the night, they could interpret the needles as drug paraphernalia.

[Deleted]

Like someone wisely said or inferred, to each his/her own.....

Just to be clear, I carry 6-10 pre-loaded syringes/needles and they last a while. Yes, one has to not let the needle go through the thorax and be careful. I use jars for the smaller stuff and beetles, only I prefer the sawdust/Plaster-of-Paris jar set up. I personally hate the legs of dead specimens getting caught up in material like cotton.

I have had police see me with needles many times through the years, but most officers have not yet seen a drug guy go carrying a net around and looking under lights at truckstops. Somehow they give me the benefit of the doubt. Maybe my headlamp hat, khakis, net with extension, bag of jars etc. indicates that drugs are not really on my mind. Who knows.....maybe they think I've 'lost my mind' and feel sorry for me.

One last thought about using jars.....and I've paid dearly for forgetting..........one has to empty them out often, for if one goes walking or running much with the specimen tossed around in the jar with others or alone, damage can ensue. Once a moth is injected (and I did it hundreds of times on my AZ trip this summer), it is ready for the envelope.

Sphingiids are the moths that are pivotal in that some get the jar and some get the syringe. Catocalas are usually jar killed depending on how they were caught(sheets at lights, sugared, or netted).

[prillbug4]

Bill, I have not had problems with specimens getting their legs stuck. I use the sheet cotton that Chuck Ianni used to use when packing specimens for shipment. I place it in and compact it down. It cushions the specimen when you are walking around searching for other specimens, then you can place them into a dump jar. All of my big moths from Belize survived without any damage under my way of collecting. The Rothschildia that I had collected had damage when it flew into the light, but it was the only one I saw so I took it anyway. My Arsenura and Titaea and most of the Sphingids are perfect, not to mention all the Arctiids. The Noctuids, Notodontids, and other families were not always in perfect condition. But that had nothing to do with my collecting methods. All of my beetles were killed in ethyl alcohol since I've always been doing it that way. Bill, you can do what you want, but I'm satisfied with my methods. Besides, I've been down to Arizona three times, and all those specimens were killed without injection. My first trip, I collected the rare Sphingid, Sagenosoma elsa near Flagstaff. I never liked the plaster of Paris/sawdust setup, because then they do flop around when you're walking.
Jeff Prill