grasshopper
Full Member
Hi Steve, Perfectly set and fantastic species.
Posts: 52
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Post by grasshopper on Mar 25, 2014 1:12:59 GMT -8
Here is what is new on the setting board today O.v isabellae Set after soaking in Vodka. Thanks for looking. Lance.
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Post by ash on Mar 25, 2014 4:53:00 GMT -8
Superbly set and great condition Ornithopera victoriae isabellae Lance. Thanks for the vodka tip, and also the idea to use graph paper! On the setting board at the moment are: Attachment DeletedOrnithoptera tithonus makikoe, relaxed conventionally and on my normal setting boards. Attachment DeletedOrnithoptera chimaera chimaera, relaxed with vodka (part soak part inject) and set on graph paper tonight. I had to make an impromptu setting board as my remaining boards were not big enough! have fun Ash
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Post by bobw on Mar 25, 2014 7:31:09 GMT -8
When you say "soaking" do you mean immersing the whole bug in it including the wings, or what?
Bob
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grasshopper
Full Member
Hi Steve, Perfectly set and fantastic species.
Posts: 52
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Post by grasshopper on Mar 25, 2014 10:34:23 GMT -8
Hi Bob, Here are some pics of a pair of O.Urillianus I set on the weekend soaking in Vodka (I leave most specimens in for 24 Hrs) I have been using this method for about 10 years with great results. As I said to Ash when I was talking to him, Try it on a spare or damaged specimen first and see what you think. It works well with beetles too. Lance.
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Post by dertodesking on Mar 26, 2014 13:24:49 GMT -8
Hi Lance, ...interesting technique! I've used gin since Bill Garthe first posted about his experiences of using it on the old forum but never like this. I've used it to relax beetle mandibles etc by "painting" it onto the beetle and allowing it to soak in and it's always worked very well for me. I've also used it if I want to alter the height a butterfly is set at on a pin - I have to admit to being a bit anal about that and like my specimens to be set at the same height on the pin. I've found that if I want to alter the height of a specimen on a pin, but don't want the hassle of relaxing and resetting a specimen, painting a small amount of gin onto the body of the insect, just where the pin enters/exits, loosens the pin up just enough that I can alter the height but pushing the specimen with a pair of fine forceps. Anyway - with regard to soaking in gin I have a couple of questions... - when I relax my specimens (which I do by placing onto damp paper towels in an airtight Tupperware box) I place the box into a warm area to create a humid environment within the relaxer - do you do the same when you stand the specimen in gin? - I notice that in your pictures only the body of the butterfly is immersed in gin - not the wings. Have you ever had the butterfly tip over and totally immerse in gin? If so did the specimen dry okay or did it stain? I still shudder thinking back to one of my first attempts at setting an O. victoriae specimen which I left in the relaxing box too long resulting in badly stained wings... Have you ever had any staining using your gin method? - Do you let the specimen dry out at all before setting or do you mount it straight from it's gin "bath"? I'd have thought the specimen would be too "wet" when straight out of the gin but would be most interested to hear your experiences... Thanks in advance, Simon
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Post by ash on Mar 26, 2014 19:50:37 GMT -8
Hi Simon,
I have only used this method on about a dozen butterflies now and only found out about it from Lance last week. To answer some of your questions - yes I have immersed whole wings of a Papilio karna and a Papilio daedelas. The specimens looked TERRIBLE when it came out from under the fluid, dark brown, wet, yuck, all through the wings and I thought - Lance must have drunk too much vodka - what is he talking about? But within half and hour it had dried out and was very bright (certainly brighter than with water). I left the specimens until the air dried the excess fluid off, this took between ten minutes and an hour depending on the size of the insect. They were very soft and moved well and spread nicely. Also within a couple of days the abdomen has hardened nicely and they look very clean with no evidence of mould or moisture damage.
cheers
Ashley
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tome
Junior Member
Posts: 24
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Post by tome on Mar 26, 2014 23:41:11 GMT -8
As I have not been very active on the new forum I thought I should include a few words of introduction. My name is Tom and at the moment my focus is on the Indo-Australian region. I have had some space issues previously and therefore been prevented from setting my specimens, but now I am busy fixing that issue! At the moment I am working on Nymphalidae and thought I should post a picture to balance all the Ornithopteras! These are Cyrestinae and apart from one Chresonesia rahria on the second board they are all Cysrestis sp. Apologies for the bad picture quality. Attachments:
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grasshopper
Full Member
Hi Steve, Perfectly set and fantastic species.
Posts: 52
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Post by grasshopper on Mar 27, 2014 1:10:24 GMT -8
Hi Simon, To answer you questions, There is no need to put the container in a warm place. The container is air tight so with the Vodka in it there is plenty of humidity. the alcohol vodka must do the trick without heat. The vodka saturates up through the thorax and abdomen into the wings so when you pull it out it is very soft and all the color is very dull but don't worry as when it starts to dry the color comes back brighter than ever and no staining. As Ash said it my take 20 minutes or so to be ready to start the setting process as you normally do. The good thing about this too is you don't get any mold ever! Give it a try and let me know how you go Simon. Kind regards, Lance. Thanks to Ash for your positive feedback
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Post by timmsyrj on Mar 27, 2014 3:07:01 GMT -8
I will have to give this method a try, first I'll have to get used to the idea of wasting so much alcohol, but I suppose I could drink the water I'm saving. Does it help with grease on abdomens etc.
Rich
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terry2014
Junior Member
Birthday April 14 1938
Posts: 33
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Post by terry2014 on Mar 27, 2014 3:22:27 GMT -8
Has anyone emerssed a water stained victoria in gin or vodka, could it possibly remove the stain ?.
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grasshopper
Full Member
Hi Steve, Perfectly set and fantastic species.
Posts: 52
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Post by grasshopper on Mar 27, 2014 10:37:37 GMT -8
I will have to give this method a try, first I'll have to get used to the idea of wasting so much alcohol, but I suppose I could drink the water I'm saving. Does it help with grease on abdomens etc. Rich Hi Rich, It might help with some specimens it depends how greasy it is, You may have to use shellite after the specimen is set and dry. Regards, Lance.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Mar 27, 2014 10:43:20 GMT -8
The vodka saturates up through the thorax and abdomen into the wings so when you pull it out it is very soft and all the color is very dull but don't worry as when it starts to dry the color comes back brighter than ever and no staining. This does suggest that either the vodka affects the colours to make them brighter than nature, or it cleans the scale surfaces thus enabling the colours to be more visible. I would worry that it is actually the former, thus not natural. Adam.
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Post by ash on Mar 27, 2014 16:37:13 GMT -8
Hi again,
When I say the butterflies appear brighter using vodka than using water, perhaps I should clarify: they are no brighter than they are naturally before being relaxed, they just don't dull that tiny bit they do (here in the tropics) when using water as the relaxant.
When using water to relax the butterfly wings, they dull every so slightly (sometimes imperceptibly) because the scales can take to long to dry, stick to the wings and to each other due to hydrogen-bonding resulting in uneven scale placement and poor light reflection, and worst of all it can get tiny microorganisms growing on them. You can sterilise the water, the box all you like, but the insect itself will always be covered in microorganisms that go in to the relaxing box at the start. The main issue is that water evaporates slowly compared to alcohol+water. All the alcohol in the vodka is doing is making an environment where micro-organisms are less likely to develop and increasing the drying rate of the insect so that scales pop back into position before setting. The alcohol may have a minor degreasing and cleaning effect but this would only occur if you submersed the whole thing in water and floated off the grease. I would be surprised if alcohol could alter the scales of a butterfly's wings.
Be selective using alcohol with beetles, for some types (e.g. some Elaterids) the scurfy material on the elytra cleans off in alcohol.
Now the main challenge is finding the right drop for the right insect - Gin for western European butterflies, Vodka for northern European butterflies, Sake for Japanese butterflies...
I assume (but have not tried) that laboratory ethanol in buffered distilled water at 30-40% would have the same effect as vodka. Too much alcohol will dehydrate the insect.
have fun
Ashley
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Post by jensb on Mar 28, 2014 12:08:11 GMT -8
I also have tried the clear setting paper which is from plastic which is used to cover my school books. It worked great I can see it much better. I know I still need to practice more but it makes it easier. I also thank claude"nomihauda" for giving me some tips for relaxing cause i relaxed my speciments in hot water and I always got problems whit the scales who just went off. I tried claudes methode which is the normal methode just relax them on some foam on cold water. This are some of the results. Greets jens
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Post by mantisboy on Mar 28, 2014 16:51:59 GMT -8
Some days ago I had this Parnassius autocrator female on board...Unfortunately she still had some scratches so I gave it away... Anyway it was still the best female I have ever seen (unfortunately not good enough for me) and I really enjoyed the mounting Small yellow papers contain chemicals against the small beetles...Once I found out that they hide in the holes made after pins! View AttachmentWell, if you are ever looking for someone to take those less-than-perfect specimens off your hands, feel free to pm me!
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