more long extinct apollo ssp.

[panzerman]

phonolithi M+F


John

Attachments:

[panzerman]

ssp. bohemicus


John

Attachments:

[panzerman]

bohemicus M+F


John

Attachments:

[panzerman]

drawer mostly extinct apollo ssp. Germany-Central Europe



John

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[africaone]

yes maybe .... I agree with you that with extinct populations and the $$$ involved, one must be very suspicious ! (and that the phenotype's characterisation for parnassius seems not 100 % reliable)

but for specimens i set today of old huntings in the 80's and 90's from Zaire (Shaba), old names, I labelled them today RD Congo (Katanga), new names !
it is more than 15 years

[africaone]

there is also another case.
many collectors that received a specimen from another collection, relabelled it with his own datas (that can explain a fresher label with no original datas). I have yet seen specimen coming from my collection, that has been reselled to other collector and with a label that changed and locality mispelled.
I also know a collector that relabbeled any specimen he acquired (and where the hunter's name disapear )

[Chris Grinter]

Radovan has a good point, old labels should always be kept. The best practice is to fold the old label in half and add it under the new label. Same for identification labels - instead of throwing out the old ones just fold them under the new one.

[panzerman]

Problem is this, some series of these apollos were collected before the ssp. name was described. Also nationalism takes control, I am sure that specimens collected before 1918 in now Czech Rep., or Slovakia were from Austro-Hungarian Empire. Many labels were re-invented with new independent Country called Czechoslovakia. Again, specimens collected in 1938-45 would have been truly labelled as Gross Deutsches Reich. After 1945 these again would not look good to now CSSR, a Communist vassal puppet state of the USSR! There have been many map changes in Europe in last 100 yrs.

John

[zdenol123]

No way someone would do it here John ! And nobody from these mentioned countries taking old labels off. Then, even when we were under Austro-Hungarians, we used to call our countries like we used to...same for war times, very same from `45. Anyways `48 - `68 were these countries occuped by Russians.

Taking old labels off is wrong, very wrong. Imagine this. You, your friend, your kid, whoever will do revision of apollo. For that you will need to find type specimens. Then you will find some types from 1908 in XY museum from "panzerman" with labels printed on laser printer, what would you do ? Would you use these specimens for some serious work ? For DNA ? Taking pics ? No...thats why its wrong. You never know, where will your collection end up and doing this wont bring more light in the problematic in taxonomy, etc...This is really serious issue, which shouldnt be never done !

[panzerman]

This is very true. However, many times older specimens were caught before they were actually described, ssp. posthumus a example. Many scenarios were that some one had series of papered specimens, that were lets say captured in 1895 Austro-Hungarian Hapsburg Empire. Someone sets these in 1954 Czechoslovakia, the place of capture, date are badly decipherable on papered envelope...someone then would write the older locality data with new Country name. Most older material, only had had exact place of capture, not the Country. I think, if someone were a seller of expensive fakes, they would certainly be wise enough too falsify the data, even the correct old Country name. Also, one should always keep all older data labels, beneath specimen, print a fancy new one for pinning on top of specimen.

John

[ladobe]

In the circles I run in a specimen without its orginal label/data is totally worthless, and always will be. Matters not if its an extinct species.