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Post by dertodesking on Jan 17, 2011 13:18:19 GMT -8
Reading back through a number of posts on the old forum I couldn't help but notice a few people reporting that the group of butterflies they have the most/greatest problems setting/spreading are the Charaxes.
I've always found these to be amongst the easiest - nice robust bodies, strong veins, reasonably robust wings etc etc...I've always had WAY more problems with various Papilonidae!!!
What is it about the Charaxes that people find difficult???
Just interested to hear other peoples views...
Simon
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Post by panzerman on Jan 17, 2011 13:40:38 GMT -8
I agree with you Simon. the only problem with charaxes, polyura, agrias are their strong wing muscles, so takes longer to relax them, also longer drying time. Once they are set and properly dried, they stay perfect. As for papilionidae, the most horrible group too mount are the "lamproptera" or swallowtails from Hell, also the "ulgyiest" Too bad they cannot be kicked out of the papilionidae!
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Post by nomihoudai on Jan 17, 2011 13:59:56 GMT -8
I think it comes down again to personal opinions and to a certain degree to "skills". Same with killing poisons. Last week I read here that ethyl acetate makes butterflies stiff which I cannot agree on, I kill all my stuff with it and it is fine, but that user finds another poison good and maybe I find that poison making them stiff. For the Charaxes, just let them a day longer in the relaxing chamber, what I also do is spreading the wings not in one go, but move it for example 1/4, then fix it, wait 5 minutes, another 1/4, wait until muscles relax more etc. Taking that in consideration Charaxes are jsut lovely to set, they are very robust. The same goes a little bit for most butterflies. If you start to spread microlepidopetra you won't have any problem with butterflies anymore. For the Lamproptera I cannot say how good bad I would do know, but cdertainly better than the first I tried 2 years ago. I don't know if you take up this request, but I would love to see your Lamproptera, the Papilionidae from hell , John and I guess more users than just me. When I remember correctly you have got most ssp. of Papilionidae so these should be among them too
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Post by maliciousinchworm on Jan 18, 2011 1:14:39 GMT -8
Hi all,
Relaxing have never been a problem, as some other have stated, just a matter of leaving the specimens in the humid enviroment for some more days. It´s important to avoid the development of molds, some antibiotic chemical should be used, same with big Sphingidae, they sometimes have to spend up to six days relaxing, in this cases mold control is a must.
Problem with Charaxes has been, for me, that the handled needle I use to spread the butterflies, bends, and I have to careful it not to ungrab the veins, as it if does, the needle will return to its original position tearing the whole wing. I find Charaxes some of the harder specimens to mount.
Regards,
Alejandro A.
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Post by bobw on Jan 18, 2011 2:06:39 GMT -8
I find setting Prepona (which of course are also Charaxinae) so difficult that I've seriously considered giving up collecting them; I've got more damage done to specimens whilst setting than there was on original A2 specimens.
I leave them in the relaxing box for at least 10 days but then I get the same problem as Alejandro; the wing muscles are so strong that I find it vitually impossible to lift the forewings into position, I can't move them up the setting board and when I try to force them the setting needle slices straight through the costal vein.
I have heard that some people cut these muscles with a scalpel. I've tried practising this with cheap P. laertes but it's difficult to know exactly where to cut. I've cut through until I thought the wings were going to fall off, but the muscles still don't feel any weaker when trying to move the wings. Has anyone got any photos of this cutting technique showing exactly where to cut?
In exasperation!
Bob
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Post by nomihoudai on Jan 18, 2011 2:22:23 GMT -8
...so you like swiss cheese butterfies Alejandro ? Lol just kidding,...
Just use one of these and you can apply as much force as you want ( I got mine on an insectfairs, usually there is at least one dealer that has got them ) and make sure you don't pull the Prepona on their colored patches, these scales do show immediately when they got misplaced during setting. I personally never relaxed Charaxes more than one or two days, but I must admit that I think my material was not the oldest one. Furthermore 6 days for a sphingidae ? Just inject boiling water, you could even get them relaxed with that in 5 minutes ( the body, not the wings and antennae unfortunately ).
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Post by wolf on Jan 18, 2011 3:51:06 GMT -8
I used to spread with needles myself. And with relaxed specimens it can be a pain in the a**. With freshly caught specimens that is beeing spread instantly there isn't much of a problem.
I however bought myself a forcep that claude has pictured from paradox company(insectnet.eu). And it is highly recommendable. Much easier to spread leps. Allthough i actually prefer needle with the smaller lycaenidae.
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Post by bobw on Jan 18, 2011 5:02:53 GMT -8
So are you saying that you use the forceps to move the wings into position instead of a setting needle? If so that's new to me!
Bob
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Post by nomihoudai on Jan 18, 2011 5:07:15 GMT -8
Yes Bob, I do use these flat forceps to
a) Handle and pack specimen
b) Use them for mounting of butterflies larger than Lycaenidae. I do use those with flat head because more area spreads the pressure to more space, or in the same way, allows you to put more force onto the specimen.
Tomorrow I will mount a Polyura schreiber when it is relaxed enough, if I get my camera in good position I will film it and show how fast that goes.
Rgds Claude
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Post by bobw on Jan 18, 2011 6:35:46 GMT -8
Claude
I have some of those forceps (I believe the Americans call them "spade tips") but I'd never thought of using them for setting.
Photos of how you do it would be very interesting. I can't wait to see how you use them to manoeuvre the wings into position.
Bob
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Post by wolf on Jan 18, 2011 6:57:55 GMT -8
Bob
Under videos in the menu above, in the instructional category there is 2 videos demostrating how to spread leps. The woman in the video uses flat tip/spade tip foreceps to place the wings.
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Post by dertodesking on Jan 18, 2011 12:04:17 GMT -8
Hey everyone! Interesting observations/thoughts... I realised soon after posting my original message that I'd called the post "problems RELAXING Charaxes" when what I actually meant to post was "problems SETTING Charaxes" (as most of the posts on the old forum seemed to suggest that the problem arose AFTER relaxing). Sure, stout-bodied butterflies take longer to relax but I'm with Claude on this; I've NEVER needed to leave anything longer than 48 hours. Bob - how did anything survive 10 days in the relaxing box? I always add some napthalene (previously used thymol) to the relaxing box to try and suppress mould but always seem to find it creeping in after about 72 hours... I'm with you on the setting needle/forcep "debate". I've tried forceps but never managed to get a result I'm happy with - I guess it's what you get used to and practice, practice, practice... I've always found the anatomical aspects of the Charaxes that make them more difficult to relax (stout bodies, strong wing muscles, strong costal veins) are the very things that make the actual setting easy (or easier) - I've had WAY more problems with things other than these... Simon
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Post by bobw on Jan 19, 2011 2:44:42 GMT -8
Bob - how did anything survive 10 days in the relaxing box? I always add some napthalene (previously used thymol) to the relaxing box to try and suppress mould but always seem to find it creeping in after about 72 hours... I add TCP to the relaxing box as a mould inhibitor, and as long as it's kept topped up I've never had any mould, the bugs fall apart first. Maybe 10 days is exceptional, but with strong bugs like Charaxinae I always give them at least 4 days, and even then I find the muscles are still too strong to move the forewings into position with a setting needle - it always bends and slips. Bob
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Post by bobw on Jan 19, 2011 2:55:07 GMT -8
Under videos in the menu above, in the instructional category there is 2 videos demostrating how to spread leps. The woman in the video uses flat tip/spade tip foreceps to place the wings. OK, I watched these and I have to admit I'd never heard of anyone setting using forceps before. Unfortunately she used a Morpho and a Papilio of the P. thoas group and these are probably the easiest of all Lepidoptera to relax and set; I bet she couldn't do it that easily with a Charaxes or a Prepona! The problem with her method with a bug with strong wing muscles would be that as soon as she let go of the forewing to concentrate on the hindwing, the forewing would spring back down. I'll give it a go with forceps but I still can't see a way of getting past the strength of the wing muscles other than cutting, and so far I've been unable to find a way of doing this effectively. Bob
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Post by maliciousinchworm on Jan 19, 2011 6:30:45 GMT -8
Dear colleagues,
There are some thing being said in this thread that I think need a deeper analysis. For example, the forceps method, I don´t like it, and I don´t like to make holes in the wings of my specimens neither (I´m vey fond of cheese by the way). I´ve been mounting specimens with needles since I started to do it (previously I had an slave) and I have mastered this technic, I can tell you I can mount a Charaxes, and Eupithecia or whatever it comes to my spreading board. I would be afraid of starting now again to learn a new method, that will require even more difficult skills to learn, I have very shaking hands and with the needle I at least have a reference point.
About the relaxing, injecting boiling water sounds very bad tome, have never done though, but all methods involving hot water make me remember once I spoiled a very nice series of Zerynthia rumina armasi, the hot water relexed the very quick, at the cost of spoiling them, the fats in their bodies soaked the wings and never again looked like the they were, superb. This don´t happens with cold water. I´ve left big Sphingidae in humid enviroment for six days, Pachylia for example, the humectator must kept clean, I use soap in it every two days, and I also add thymol in the wet cloth to avoid rottening or molds. 10 days doesn´t look dangerous to me whenever you take care of these thing. I also leave the humectator out from direct sunlight and in a fresh place, sudden evaporation will induce the aparition of condensation and water drops that could fail in the specimens. I prefer a long relaxing period with good results than an abrupt one that couls lead to disaster.
Of course all of this thing are up to each one.
Regards,
Alejandro A.
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