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Post by trehopr1 on Apr 12, 2021 23:15:16 GMT -8
Mothman55, I have a request of you !
I however, do not wish to change the direction of this thread; so if you are able to fulfill my request than please start with a new thread.
I should very much like to see your Cecropia(s) measuring 6 (7/8) inches...
Preferably with a ruler placed in front of the specimen. Would you also state the wingspan in millimeters (tip-tip).
I cannot help but, bring into question the measurement.
Cecropia is indeed the largest moth here in North America. Without doubt it has the greatest "wing area" and a VERY few make it to the 6 (1/2) inch expanse or (16.51 centimeters).
I have seen several in various collections in the 6 inch wingspan range of 15.2 - 15.4 centimeters. One of our long standing members has even posted a picture of his "wild collected" (164 mm) specimen from Tennessee (effectively 6 1/2 inches).
I'm not saying that something LARGER than 16.51 centimeters / 6 1/2 inches is not possible but, a beastie that size is truly rare and extraordinary !!
Actually most typical specimens measure BELOW the 6 inches marker of 15.24 centimeters. More often than not coming-in at the mid to high 14's.
I have heard of one supersize specimen at an institution which I hope to sometime measure and photograph for myself (and the forum). Said to be around 7 inches.
Anyway, it would certainly be a treat for all to see this "queen" in excess of 6 1/2 inches wing expanse so, indulge us if you would...
*I should also note that Dr. Charles Covell in his book (work) on the moths of Eastern North America indicates some very impressive measurements of singular "out-sized" specimens of Eacles imperialis. These measurements would indicate some known examples exceeding 7 inches (17.78 centimeters).
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 13, 2021 1:12:12 GMT -8
jta.de/v/mini1.jpgjta.de/v/mini2.jpgHello, here are the 2 scmall ones I have. For all not EU friends, the 2 EUR is 2.5 cm. the polytes is from Poring hot springs, Borneo. Thanks to all for posting beautifl butterflies Joachim I suspect the female Papilio polytes from Poring was collected by Prasobsuk Sukkit (Ting), as well as the Papilio alcmenor in another thread. Ting went to Sabah in March 1979, and I can see the edges of what looks like one of his labels in the photo. Please can you send me upper- and underside photos of this polytes specimen with the label, or post links here, thank you. I would be interested to know where you obtained these specimens. Adam.
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Post by joachim on Apr 13, 2021 2:14:01 GMT -8
Hi, I collected it myself in 1981 ( so long ago ) or 1982, will check later. Okay will check it in the evening. Joachim
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Post by exoticimports on Apr 13, 2021 4:14:25 GMT -8
I've bred thousands of cecropia, luna, polyphemus, promethea, etc. The method was using aquariums of about 30 gallons (~114 liter) and throwing branches of food in. Typically, there would be about 150 larvae in the aquarium, which is crowded at L5.
If we use a standard bell curve for larvae size, there will be rare outliers- small and large. This is representative of wild populations. With crowded saturnids the right (large) end of the bell curve is eliminated, while the left (small) end is larger. Thus, I never had any monster sized adults; that said, 95% were still in the "typical" size range.
By L3 (note: at L3 they are not really crowded, and certainly not starved for food), there was always a marked disparity between larvae size and speed to the next stage. This is not unlike many birds, in which one of two nestlings grows markedly faster. In any event, the smaller, slower growing larvae always were the runts, and produced smaller adults.
Of the smaller adults, a very few were what I'd call "tiny". I will note however, that I never observed this with polyphemus, and it was more common with promethea than cecropia and luna.
Chuck
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Post by jhyatt on Apr 13, 2021 5:20:11 GMT -8
I have a wild-collected dark female P. glaucus from Tennessee that is very small, barely larger than the largest Colias I have. The small ones all seem to be early spring specimens here.
I would never trust electronic-format data alone for specimens. How many computer formats (tape, big floppy, small floppy, etc etc) have come and gone and are not now easily readable? Why would I assume that the current data storage format will be usable indefinitely? Ink and paper will always be readable.
I am equally distrustful of systems in which a number on a specimens refers to a written data book. I know of two collections, including an otherwise wonderful Venezuelan collection, made worthless because the book with the data was lost. I don't doubt that there have been many more which suffered this fate.
jh
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Post by joachim on Apr 13, 2021 6:30:50 GMT -8
I've bred thousands of cecropia, luna, polyphemus, promethea, etc. The method was using aquariums of about 30 gallons (~114 liter) and throwing branches of food in. Typically, there would be about 150 larvae in the aquarium, which is crowded at L5. If we use a standard bell curve for larvae size, there will be rare outliers- small and large. This is representative of wild populations. With crowded saturnids the right (large) end of the bell curve is eliminated, while the left (small) end is larger. Thus, I never had any monster sized adults; that said, 95% were still in the "typical" size range. By L3 (note: at L3 they are not really crowded, and certainly not starved for food), there was always a marked disparity between larvae size and speed to the next stage. This is not unlike many birds, in which one of two nestlings grows markedly faster. In any event, the smaller, slower growing larvae always were the runts, and produced smaller adults. Of the smaller adults, a very few were what I'd call "tiny". I will note however, that I never observed this with polyphemus, and it was more common with promethea than cecropia and luna. Chuck What are you doing with so many cropia etc.?
Joachim
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Post by trehopr1 on Apr 13, 2021 7:14:07 GMT -8
Very well put jhyatt !
Bravo...
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Post by bobw on Apr 13, 2021 7:27:55 GMT -8
Very well put jhyatt ! Bravo... I think we're all in agreement with John.
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Post by exoticimports on Apr 13, 2021 7:30:57 GMT -8
Joachim, most were released into the wild. I raised them to enjoy doing so. I don’t have time to be a commercial supplier.
It’s been a few years since I raised Leps, I have no time for it. Chuck
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Post by andrewtim on Apr 13, 2021 8:06:30 GMT -8
Very well put jhyatt ! Bravo... I think we're all in agreement with John. This point of view is respected of course. But I think that we will make barcoding and microchipping applicable instead of the paper labels very soon. Progress cannot be stopped. Karl Linney would envy us with our technical opportunities in 21st century. Every dog and cat has it chip already, every pair of Nike s as well. And the problem of reading a disc or a zip file from our century in the 22d century will not be a problem either. Problem is to keep the specimens for years out of access of bugs and ants should bother us more.
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Post by andrewtim on Apr 13, 2021 8:16:04 GMT -8
I've bred thousands of cecropia, luna, polyphemus, promethea, etc. The method was using aquariums of about 30 gallons (~114 liter) and throwing branches of food in. Typically, there would be about 150 larvae in the aquarium, which is crowded at L5. If we use a standard bell curve for larvae size, there will be rare outliers- small and large. This is representative of wild populations. With crowded saturnids the right (large) end of the bell curve is eliminated, while the left (small) end is larger. Thus, I never had any monster sized adults; that said, 95% were still in the "typical" size range. By L3 (note: at L3 they are not really crowded, and certainly not starved for food), there was always a marked disparity between larvae size and speed to the next stage. This is not unlike many birds, in which one of two nestlings grows markedly faster. In any event, the smaller, slower growing larvae always were the runts, and produced smaller adults. Of the smaller adults, a very few were what I'd call "tiny". I will note however, that I never observed this with polyphemus, and it was more common with promethea than cecropia and luna. Chuck Tiny specimens nature is interesting to me for years. I have reared hundreds of specimens myself and observed larvae in the wild. My conclusion is that "minimism" is basically the result of 1) poor health of larvae that still could make it to pupae; 2) of abnormal conditions of larva feeding (extreme temperatures, lack of food, too much poisonous juice in the food plant leaves, etc.: 3) some kind of mutation.
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Post by 58chevy on Apr 13, 2021 8:18:26 GMT -8
Mothman55, I would also like to see you start a new thread on large cecropias as Trehopr requested.
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Post by mothman55 on Apr 13, 2021 8:56:03 GMT -8
Done
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Post by joachim on Apr 13, 2021 14:31:53 GMT -8
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 14, 2021 1:58:37 GMT -8
joachimThank you for the photos. I see you were there in 1978. That was the first year I came to SE Asia too. I visited Thailand for a trip in July-August, and had a fantastic visit to Khao Soi Dao, Chantaburi with Bro. Amnuay Pinratana on 5 August (easy date to remember as it's my Mother's birthday). It seems that Sabah polytes theseus may be generally smaller than those from other places. I took a snapshot photo of the specimens Prasobsuk Sukkit caught on his 1979 trip and a very large female from Sumatra. My other females from Sumatra are smaller than the large one, but larger than the Borneo specimens. Adam.
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