|
|
Post by Crake on Mar 1, 2021 22:57:59 GMT -8
Alrighty—I find this to be a mostly foreign topic—so please bear with me.
I'm interested in rearing some tropical saturniidae (Argema mimosae, A. mittrei, Attacus atlas, etc.) in California U.S.A, and have some questions regarding the necessary permit(s). Foremostly, which permit(s) is/are required? Would PPQ 526 (Permit to Move Live Plant Pests, Biological Control Agents, Bees, Parasitic Plants, Federal Noxious Weeds, or Soil) reliably meet the legal requirements to import/possess numerous species under the same application, or are species-specific applications more effective because they cover a single subject and are—presumably—less painstaking to review and approve? I've spoken to people who've imported "exotic" species without permits (they seem to view permits as "contingency plans") and claim that no legal issues arose. Though I assume being caught and fined is unlikely, I'd rather be on the safe side.
What are all of your thoughts/advice/experiences on this matter? Any help would be much appreciated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post by jshuey on Mar 2, 2021 5:12:33 GMT -8
|
|
|
|
Post by exoticimports on Mar 2, 2021 8:20:47 GMT -8
In short, forget about legal import of live butterflies or moths. Butterfly Zoo operators have shared with me the confining and strict allowances under license, as well as the high cost of compliance. You will NOT get a license for import of live specimens into USA.
I Would suggest not importing livestock without license. You will, at least, suffer a serious fine. The Herp fanatics do it, admittedly with holistically good geo-environmental impact, but at risk of arrest. Herps are one thing, considering that last week 73% of CONUS had snow cover. Importing live insects is at a different level of environmental risk, with a commensurate punishment.
Escape of live insects is almost inevitable. Look at the economic and ecological impact of stupid live insect import / releases, even by the supposedly intelligent USFWS. Don’t subject us to that risk.
Chuck
|
|
|
|
Post by Paul K on Mar 2, 2021 9:03:27 GMT -8
There are many native silkmoths in N.America that you would have plenty of fun with these ( unless of course you did breed them already )
For exotic once why not get dead specimen.
|
|
|
|
Post by Crake on Mar 2, 2021 10:07:37 GMT -8
In short, forget about legal import of live butterflies or moths. Butterfly Zoo operators have shared with me the confining and strict allowances under license, as well as the high cost of compliance. You will NOT get a license for import of live specimens into USA. I Would suggest not importing livestock without license. You will, at least, suffer a serious fine. The Herp fanatics do it, admittedly with holistically good geo-environmental impact, but at risk of arrest. Herps are one thing, considering that last week 73% of CONUS had snow cover. Importing live insects is at a different level of environmental risk, with a commensurate punishment. Escape of live insects is almost inevitable. Look at the economic and ecological impact of stupid live insect import / releases, even by the supposedly intelligent USFWS. Don’t subject us to that risk. Chuck That's reasonable. I was already a bit skeptical because of the enivonmental/legal ramifications. I'll stick to the North American species as Paul suggested—they're just as interesting. |
|
|
|
Post by jshuey on Mar 2, 2021 10:52:37 GMT -8
In short, forget about legal import of live butterflies or moths. Butterfly Zoo operators have shared with me the confining and strict allowances under license, as well as the high cost of compliance. You will NOT get a license for import of live specimens into USA. I Would suggest not importing livestock without license. You will, at least, suffer a serious fine. The Herp fanatics do it, admittedly with holistically good geo-environmental impact, but at risk of arrest. Herps are one thing, considering that last week 73% of CONUS had snow cover. Importing live insects is at a different level of environmental risk, with a commensurate punishment. Escape of live insects is almost inevitable. Look at the economic and ecological impact of stupid live insect import / releases, even by the supposedly intelligent USFWS. Don’t subject us to that risk. Chuck Hey - I hope that's sarcasm given the mess in Florida with multiple species, chytrid fungus etc. Even Indiana has a problematic invasive lizard now. j |
|
|
|
jwa121
Junior Member
Posts: 28 
|
Post by jwa121 on Mar 2, 2021 11:44:49 GMT -8
The difficulty of establishing a reproducing population of Argema mimosae, Argema mittrei, or Attacus atlas anywhere in the United States would be on par with establishing a reproducing herd of African giraffes in Canada's high Arctic.
|
|
|
|
Post by Crake on Mar 2, 2021 11:52:47 GMT -8
The difficulty of establishing a reproducing population of Argema mimosae, Argema mittrei, or Attacus atlas anywhere in the United States would be on par with establishing a reproducing herd of African giraffes in Canada's high Arctic. Agreed—especially in California—it's too hot and dry for them. I still wouldn't want to risk violating any regulations, regardless of inconsistencies. |
|
|
|
Post by Chris Grinter on Mar 2, 2021 13:06:54 GMT -8
The difficulty of establishing a reproducing population of Argema mimosae, Argema mittrei, or Attacus atlas anywhere in the United States would be on par with establishing a reproducing herd of African giraffes in Canada's high Arctic. Agreed—especially in California—it's too hot and dry for them. I still wouldn't want to risk violating any regulations, regardless of inconsistencies. You never know—I bet Agrema would be right at home in coastal SoCal on our introduced Myrtales. |
|
|
|
Post by Crake on Mar 2, 2021 13:26:42 GMT -8
Agreed—especially in California—it's too hot and dry for them. I still wouldn't want to risk violating any regulations, regardless of inconsistencies. You never know—I bet Agrema would be right at home in coastal SoCal on our introduced Myrtales. I could definitely imagine them among the eucalyptus groves in SF. I'm in the central valley, which I assume would be much less hospitable. |
|
|
|
Post by kevinkk on Mar 2, 2021 19:44:48 GMT -8
The difficulty of establishing a reproducing population of Argema mimosae, Argema mittrei, or Attacus atlas anywhere in the United States would be on par with establishing a reproducing herd of African giraffes in Canada's high Arctic. I'm sure I saw a Discovery channel show where these bearded scruffy guys were hunting the bigfooted giraffe in Alaska. Follow the rules if it pleases you, it does not please me, I'm trying to get a breeding population of Graellsia here in Oregon  See the post about cocoon hunting and the success of Samia cynthia in the USA. The acceptance of eucalyptus by both species of Argema is still being debated, sometimes it works for some people, sometimes not. It's not reliable. I was just reading a thread on Actias about mimosae not accepting Eucalyptus gunni, and it's always mentioned as a foodplant by sellers. |
|
|
|
Post by kevinkk on Mar 2, 2021 19:54:43 GMT -8
Chuck ....releases even by supposedly intelligent USWFS That must be like the "controlled burns" the California Dept of Forestry let get out of control when I lived there...3 times in a row.  |
|
|
|
Post by exoticimports on Mar 4, 2021 4:57:24 GMT -8
In short, forget about legal import of live butterflies or moths. Butterfly Zoo operators have shared with me the confining and strict allowances under license, as well as the high cost of compliance. You will NOT get a license for import of live specimens into USA. I Would suggest not importing livestock without license. You will, at least, suffer a serious fine. The Herp fanatics do it, admittedly with holistically good geo-environmental impact, but at risk of arrest. Herps are one thing, considering that last week 73% of CONUS had snow cover. Importing live insects is at a different level of environmental risk, with a commensurate punishment. Escape of live insects is almost inevitable. Look at the economic and ecological impact of stupid live insect import / releases, even by the supposedly intelligent USFWS. Don’t subject us to that risk. Chuck Hey - I hope that's sarcasm given the mess in Florida with multiple species, chytrid fungus etc. Even Indiana has a problematic invasive lizard now. j So busted. I was trying to focus on a particular aspect without going into detail, so painted with a broad brush. Anyway....the point I was thinking of.... There are many species of threatened or endangered species and/or naturally occurring morphs & forms for which the captive bred population exceeds that in the wild. Likely candidates (without researching the figures) include: snow leopard, black palm cockatoo, dozens of herps, and hundreds of aquarium fish. In the case of herps and fish, it's the hobby enthusiasts, not the federally recognized zoos, that have ensured species (and form) continuity while the wild populations are destroyed by encroachment. One may cite the snake problem in Florida, or the Snakeheads, which certainly are a concern. But note that these were releases of animals approved for import/ breeding. It is highly unlikely they were bred, or released, by the true fanatics. Meanwhile, one can cite USFWS / US Gov complete screw-ups such as the allowed importation of grass carps and Gypsy moths. On top of that, throw in the intentional releases to counter a current threat; rumors abound that the Saturnid population decrease is a result of predator release by USFWS to counter Gypsy moths. There are, to my knowledge, no ecological threats resulting from the illegal import of herps or fish by fanatics. I use the term fanatic, as these are the serious hobbyists, often solely focused on breeding a rare species, and possessing knowledge that exceeds that of USFWS (who have been documented to fail to keep seized animals alive), zoos, and professionals. Some of these animals, illegally imported, have been introduced into the general hobbyist trade (e.g. bearded dragons) to the point that the species as a whole is perfectly safe. Anecdotally, recall the guy who was breeding a rare US papilio (kaibabensis was it?). Though done with the worst of intentions, the fact is that he had accumulated an impressive volume of live, breeding specimens. Arguably, it may have exceeded the wild population. Of course, in a typical scenario which could be entitled "When A-Holes Collide" USFWS seized and lost the captive population. Much ado is made about the threatened Fijian iguanas. The solution is simple- give a couple pair to fanatic herp breeders in USA. In ten years they will be available at the pet store. Of course we have concerns about genetics and such, but the species will be secure. I'm not saying it's always a good idea. I was at the home of the mayor of Honiara on Guadalcanal when he told me he intended to import live Alexandrae to breed and sell. I was mortified, given the likeness of the flora of Popondetta and parts of Guadalcanal. I tried to convince him it was a very, very bad plan. Whether by my influence or not, it never happened. That said, most of us know what's happening to the region around Popondetta while the world's supposed Eco agencies turn a blind eye. Why not allow a butterfly zoo to import and specialize on Alexandrae? That would ensure a surviving population. The fact remains that whether it's killifish or some ultra-rare radiated tortoise, illegally imported and bred live specimens have ensured survival of the species. This has been done by fanatics, not government, and often not zoos, or research facilities. We can swap horror stories of real and potential eco threats by escaped or released specimens, but I think those arguments can be matched 1:1 with like stories where Eco and government agencies screwed up. The world has species threatened, most of them by loss of habitat. Nobody cares to actually do anything about it. Some of those species can be preserved by experts who are willing, and capable, of doing so on their own dime. Chuck |
|
