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Post by Crake on Feb 18, 2021 21:55:17 GMT -8
I was taking a walk this morning and picked up a tiger swallowtail (P. rutulus) nectaring at some lantana at the edge of a road. While examining it, I was approached by a woman who irately declared that I, (to summarize an incoherent tirade), was "violating the purity" of such a creature, demanded that I, (a very delinquent individual), give her my name or else she would follow me home to "have a long talk" with my parents. I told her I would call the police if she did so, and the accostment stopped.
Never in my life have I endured such an inordinate and absurdly comical show of aggression—though I have been reprimanded in similar situations before that incident.
Ordinarily, people claim that I'm cruel for harming— or even touching—a butterfly. Or, that it is "too beautiful" to kill, to which I respond that insects do not feel pain, nor are they sentient, much less concerned with their appearance.
Has anyone here been criticized publicly for collecting Lepidoptera? Most people have a predisposed fondness for butterflies are inclined to defend them, regardless of their knowledge of the subject.
C'est la vie, I suppose. :/
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Post by kevinkk on Feb 18, 2021 22:30:22 GMT -8
That's sick, I've been accosted before by what I'd describe as a "large and vocal female", that was a long time ago, usually, people are
interested, unless it's some park ranger kicking you out of the campground for catching insects that are just as numerous across the street.
Anybody that talked to me like that, would change their minds very quickly, I'm over 21 and carry in the field. I suppose this person
swerves for caterpillars in the road as well as the butterflies she smacks into with her car.
I'm happy to talk with friendlies, and just as happy to discourage the unfriendly. They'll smash spiders at home, but give the self righteous
a chance, and they jump at it.
People cut flowers, they eat fish and don't think twice. As hobbyists, we appreciate the insects and nature just as much as anyone, possibly
more.
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Post by wollastoni on Feb 19, 2021 0:08:51 GMT -8
The best answer to these people is : "I am conducting a taxonomical survey of Neartic rhopalocera species distribution, could you help with some data".
Most of the time, they feel stupid and leave you alone.
Another one that works is : "I am studying mosquitoes and horse flies".
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gaspipe
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Post by gaspipe on Feb 19, 2021 5:23:28 GMT -8
The best answer to these people is : "I am conducting a taxonomical survey of Neartic rhopalocera species distribution, could you help with some data". Most of the time, they feel stupid and leave you alone. Another one that works is : "I am studying mosquitoes and horse flies". Well put . If any of those do not work I would ask them if they are familiar with the expression “Go pound sand”. |
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Post by jshuey on Feb 19, 2021 5:36:00 GMT -8
Words of advice from a lifetime of collecting:
1 - My one overriding rule - be discrete. Even in developing countries, I would not collect along a roadside frequented by the public.
2 - Respect the view points of others. You may not agree with them, but as an opinion, their view is just as likely to be valid as is your view.
3 - Don't lie about what what you are doing. Don't lie period. But be able to explain why you think what you are doing is a valid and ethical activity.
I've been collecting insects for almost 50 years now, and only once have I had a totally negative experience (on Big Pine Key, on the side of Highway 1, net in hand, collecting a big pretty butterfly off a flower). I violated rule #1 and had not yet figured out rules 2 and 3. Since then - no problems.
John
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Post by yorky on Feb 19, 2021 5:57:17 GMT -8
Words of advice from a lifetime of collecting: 1 - My one overriding rule - be discrete. Even in developing countries, I would not collect along a roadside frequented by the public. 2 - Respect the view points of others. You may not agree with them, but as an opinion, their view is just as likely to be valid as is your view. 3 - Don't lie about what what you are doing. Don't lie period. But be able to explain why you think what you are doing is a valid and ethical activity. I've been collecting insects for almost 50 years now, and only once have I had a totally negative experience (on Big Pine Key, on the side of Highway 1, net in hand, collecting a big pretty butterfly off a flower). I violated rule #1 and had not yet figured out rules 2 and 3. Since then - no problems. John I agree with the sentiments wholeheartedly but here in the UK people are so self righteous and anti collecting that it wouldn't work. I try a different approach, I take my son, one look at him and people don't come within half a mile of us. |
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Post by wingedwishes on Feb 19, 2021 8:49:37 GMT -8
All good points. I take my daughter with me too, Yorky. I'll relay an example of this kind of behavior....
While on a walk with one of my daughters, I was smoking a cigar my Cuban friend had rolled for me. A boy around 7 years old passed me riding a bicycle. A few seconds later he passed me again standing up on the pedals and turned his head to give me a dirty look. A moment passed and he passes me again quickly and skidded his bike tires to a hard stop. He puffed out his chest and loudly declared "SIR!"
I stopped to face him about 6 feet away. I took the cigar from my mouth and answered "Yes?"
His school training went into overdrive as he jutted his chin out and proclaimed "Don't you know that smoking is bad for your health?"
I slowly held up the cigar and looked at it and then looked directly into his eyes as I replied in my deepest voice "So is talking to strangers little boy...."
His eyes grew as big as goose eggs as his other school training took over and made him pedal away as fast as his self righteous little legs could take him.
My daughters and I laughed til we cried. This was 25 years ago.
Preconceptual states of being are what cause many to presume things that are untrue and are consequently unable to discuss any differing concepts.
(yeah, its language like that which sometimes takes minds into translate mode and out of argument mode. Etymology and Entomology. I enjoy both).
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Post by kevinkk on Feb 19, 2021 9:07:48 GMT -8
Words of advice from a lifetime of collecting: 1 - My one overriding rule - be discrete. Even in developing countries, I would not collect along a roadside frequented by the public. 2 - Respect the view points of others. You may not agree with them, but as an opinion, their view is just as likely to be valid as is your view. 3 - Don't lie about what what you are doing. Don't lie period. But be able to explain why you think what you are doing is a valid and ethical activity. I've been collecting insects for almost 50 years now, and only once have I had a totally negative experience (on Big Pine Key, on the side of Highway 1, net in hand, collecting a big pretty butterfly off a flower). I violated rule #1 and had not yet figured out rules 2 and 3. Since then - no problems. John Point 1 is a good one, having only been out of the USA collecting once, 30 years ago, I'm sure things have changed. Once the locals found out, we were inundated with people holding mariposas wanting to sell them, finger prints and all.. Daytime is different, and you're more likely to encounter people, what people think of a purple light in the woods after dark- I have no idea. (alien emoji) Point 2 - situational Point 3- you may have to prove that lie, and then you'll be stuck |
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Post by Crake on Feb 19, 2021 9:07:53 GMT -8
The best answer to these people is : "I am conducting a taxonomical survey of Neartic rhopalocera species distribution, could you help with some data". Most of the time, they feel stupid and leave you alone. Another one that works is : "I am studying mosquitoes and horse flies". Good Idea. Most people are polite and engaging, but every so often one ecounters such an "opinionated" person... You could quiz them: "Please give me the binomial name of *insert insect* and I'll release it. |
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Post by catocala59 on Feb 19, 2021 9:15:51 GMT -8
I had a run in with a little old lady while collecting butterflies many years ago. She told me how cruel I was to be killing such lovely creatures. I wasn't killing them at all - just collecting 2 females for breeding stock, but that didn't seem to matter. What made me laugh was her indigence when I pointed out that while she'd been harassing me her rat-dog (which wasn't on a lead) had defecated and urinated on a patch of rare orchids that were much more localized and endangered than the butterflies I was catching. She stomped off threatening to tell the forest warden about me.I offered to show her my collecting permit, signed by said warden. The conversation ended at that point.
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Post by Crake on Feb 19, 2021 9:47:46 GMT -8
I had a run in with a little old lady while collecting butterflies many years ago. She told me how cruel I was to be killing such lovely creatures. I wasn't killing them at all - just collecting 2 females for breeding stock, but that didn't seem to matter. What made me laugh was her indigence when I pointed out that while she'd been harassing me her rat-dog (which wasn't on a lead) had defecated and urinated on a patch of rare orchids that were much more localized and endangered than the butterflies I was catching. She stomped off threatening to tell the forest warden about me.I offered to show her my collecting permit, signed by said warden. The conversation ended at that point. Interesting. The "officious middle-aged woman with a little dog and yoga pants" stereotype is beginning to form... I've never really felt threatened by such a person before. Usually, I just humor them—they're anecdote fuel. |
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Post by yorky on Feb 19, 2021 10:54:01 GMT -8
All good points. I take my daughter with me too, Yorky. I'll relay an example of this kind of behavior.... While on a walk with one of my daughters, I was smoking a cigar my Cuban friend had rolled for me. A boy around 7 years old passed me riding a bicycle. A few seconds later he passed me again standing up on the pedals and turned his head to give me a dirty look. A moment passed and he passes me again quickly and skidded his bike tires to a hard stop. He puffed out his chest and loudly declared "SIR!" I stopped to face him about 6 feet away. I took the cigar from my mouth and answered "Yes?" His school training went into overdrive as he jutted his chin out and proclaimed "Don't you know that smoking is bad for your health?" I slowly held up the cigar and looked at it and then looked directly into his eyes as I replied in my deepest voice "So is talking to strangers little boy...." His eyes grew as big as goose eggs as his other school training took over and made him pedal away as fast as his self righteous little legs could take him. My daughters and I laughed til we cried. This was 25 years ago. Preconceptual states of being are what cause many to presume things that are untrue and are consequently unable to discuss any differing concepts. (yeah, its language like that which sometimes takes minds into translate mode and out of argument mode. Etymology and Entomology. I enjoy both). The reason I take my son with me if for different reasons to you taking your daughter. He is 34 and an avid collector, roughly the size of a barn door and doesn't have any patience with fools. Tact and diplomacy are not in his make up either so any would be have a go tree hugging hero's tend not to hang about for too long when he snarls at them. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 19, 2021 11:43:36 GMT -8
Yorkshire culture I guess  I saw a photo you posted of your son in another topic, and can vouch that he's not the sort of build anyone would want to pick an argument with. Adam. |
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Post by yorky on Feb 19, 2021 12:58:55 GMT -8
Yorkshire culture I guess I saw a photo you posted of your son in another topic, and can vouch that he's not the sort of build anyone would want to pick an argument with. Adam. Normally he's the most affable and gentle soul and great company but if provoked be somewhere else. |
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Post by wingedwishes on Feb 19, 2021 14:11:12 GMT -8
Oh - got it. Something about posture and body language can sometimes communicate more than words. I had a competition with a fellow officer to see who would get more thank you's when we wrote citations. You might think that getting any is a miracle. It really isn't.
However, if that fails, my reflexes and training are pretty good in a crisis or disaster. I consider it a fail on my part if I go there.
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Post by yorky on Feb 19, 2021 14:46:08 GMT -8
I actually have a friend who I see at the shows here in England who was out collecting beetles with another guy when a busybody accosted them, he told me with a smile on his face that they "slapped him about a bit" . I'll wager said busybody thought twice about opening his mouth again.
What gets me is the sheer audacity and self righteousness of some people to think they have the right to come up to you, who do they think they are? Why can't they just go on their way and mind their own business, unless they are genuinely interested.
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Post by bandrow on Feb 19, 2021 17:38:28 GMT -8
Greetings,
There do seem to be some common threads here - even down to the Highway 1 reference by John! I was collecting during the day on Key Largo along Highway 1 back in the 1990s. We had permits, and were told to place them in full view on the dashboard of the car, so passing law enforcement could see why the vehicle was parked there. I was about half a mile down the road, and an elderly woman in a red convertible sports car stopped and demanded to see my permit to collect butterflies. I told her I wasn't collecting butterflies, but rather beetles, and she called me a liar and demanded the permit again. I told her it was on the car's dash and directed her to go look at it. She insisted I had to have a copy on my person, so I suggested she drive me back to the car to save me the walk. She barked that no sweaty, dirty butterfly collector was getting into her car, so I taught her some synonyms for self-gratification and walked away. She drove off "to get the sheriff" but I never saw her again.
The ironic part is that on the first day in the Keys, a woman's body was found under a pile of trash near one of the powerline poles, and on our second day, a person was decapitated at the local marina in a drunken boating accident. I found Santeria relics in the hammock, and during a walk with a headlamp while blacklighting, I heard the distinct click of a walkie-talkie being activated somewhere in the dark around me. I found reflective thumbtacks on tree trunks and was told by the park biologist that those were used by drug runners to follow trails at night from the beach to the highway. With all this kind of stuff happening - this 70-something woman decided that stopping and accosting a young male stranger held no potential threat for her... wonder how old she lived to be?
On a funnier note - I had a woman stop her car while I was running a MV light sheet in an Ohio state park, and bring her two kids, maybe 5 and 7, up to the sheet. This was past 11:00 p.m. in a remote part of the park. Her question? She wanted to know if her kids could watch the "shadow puppet show". Idiot.
Cheers!
Bandrow
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Post by kevinkk on Feb 19, 2021 17:40:27 GMT -8
Oh - got it. Something about posture and body language can sometimes communicate more than words. I had a competition with a fellow officer to see who would get more thank you's when we wrote citations. You might think that getting any is a miracle. It really isn't. However, if that fails, my reflexes and training are pretty good in a crisis or disaster. I consider it a fail on my part if I go there. What? I can't recall ever thanking an officer for being cited, or arrested.  I did grow up in an era where we were taught to respect them however. Even when I was stupid enough to be tricked into admitting guilt. |
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Post by wingedwishes on Feb 19, 2021 19:08:23 GMT -8
I was a wildlife and animal control officer - not police but similar uniforms. I was just that good.In writing a citation I also gave advice or resources for animals to prevent future problems. Sometimes out of my own pocket. I wasn't always thanked (one stated he did not recognize my authority- I told them we can solve the problem here or he can tell it to the judge) but people sometimes recognized me off duty and approached me to say the advice I gave them worked really well. That startled me because you never know who is ready to pounce... I was out when a new director took over. They let go the last director/veterinarian/USAF colonel and replaced him with a disgraced assistant county administrator....a mean little old lady..... And now we're back to the original type antagonist of this thread.
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Post by wingedwishes on Feb 19, 2021 19:16:32 GMT -8
Bandrow -
I found that Florida neighborhoods in many cases would alternate from ritzy to slum and then back in just a few streets. It seemed the Florida Castle Law emboldened some to shoot first and abuse the statement 'I felt in fear for my life' after.
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Post by bandrow on Feb 19, 2021 20:05:41 GMT -8
Bandrow - I found that Florida neighborhoods in many cases would alternate from ritzy to slum and then back in just a few streets. It seemed the Florida Castle Law emboldened some to shoot first and abuse the statement 'I felt in fear for my life' after. That woman lived in the gated community at the northern end of Key Largo. I mentioned the encounter to the park biologist that we were working with and she knew who she was. Apparently she confronted others on a regular basis - and I wouldn't doubt she was packing. The Keys in general were an eclectic mix of the wealthy, the tourists, the homeless, the professional beach bums - quite a mix of seemingly unmixable people, but somehow it all seemed to work! And the collecting was spectacular, until the mosquito planes came over at about 300' and dowsed us with insecticide. We learned to go inside around 5:00 p.m. to avoid that hazard... Bandrow |
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Post by wingedwishes on Feb 19, 2021 21:34:03 GMT -8
My uncle still has a house to the North East of Marathon on Stirrup Key. He would fly in, land his plane next to his pier, grab some lobsters from the cinder blocks under the pier and cook them right there. I used to dive there. Enjoyed the biology there.
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Post by bandrow on Feb 20, 2021 8:38:45 GMT -8
My uncle still has a house to the North East of Marathon on Stirrup Key. He would fly in, land his plane next to his pier, grab some lobsters from the cinder blocks under the pier and cook them right there. I used to dive there. Enjoyed the biology there. I haven't been down there since 1994 - permits got hard to get and I turned my attention elsewhere. In 1993 and 1994 the collecting for 'bycids was phenomenal due to the amount of dead and damaged trees and branches down from Hurricane Andrew in August of 1992. Between those two trips I collected nearly every species known from the Keys. We went in the first week of June both times, but the season had shifted just enough from one year to he next that we got a different cohort of species each time, but cumulatively it was almost a synoptic set of the island's taxa. Cheers! Bandrow |
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Post by 58chevy on Feb 20, 2021 8:43:46 GMT -8
Bandrow, show us some pictures of your Florida Keys cerambycids.
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Post by jtaylor on Feb 20, 2021 9:05:49 GMT -8
This is priceless!
On a funnier note - I had a woman stop her car while I was running a MV light sheet in an Ohio state park, and bring her two kids, maybe 5 and 7, up to the sheet. This was past 11:00 p.m. in a remote part of the park. Her question? She wanted to know if her kids could watch the "shadow puppet show". Idiot.
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I did grow up in an era where we were taught to respect them however.
