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Post by gaspipe on Feb 13, 2021 5:10:20 GMT -8
As a complete novice (with not even a fraction of the knowledge of all of you on this forum) what is the attraction of acquiring specimens that have been artificially altered ? I never new this was done until reading recent posts . I am referring to those posts talking about chemical or ultraviolet “treatments”. Appreciate any thoughts.
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Post by yorky on Feb 13, 2021 5:28:07 GMT -8
Because we like them,because we want to, because we can. There are some who collect for purely scientific purposes but most hobby entomologists are attracted by aesthetics, some of these forms, especially agrias prepona hybrids are mind blowingly beautiful.
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Post by kevinkk on Feb 13, 2021 7:55:50 GMT -8
Some are altered with UV without disclosing the fact to produce more expensive "rarities". I was unaware that someone might do this on purpose for aesthetics. I wouldn't worry about experience level too much gaspipe, I'm somewhere in the "upper lower middle class". Hybrids are one thing, UV is something different altogether. Just recently this was discussed, the UV treatment isn't always permanent.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 13, 2021 10:01:46 GMT -8
As a complete novice (with not even a fraction of the knowledge of all of you on this forum) what is the attraction of acquiring specimens that have been artificially altered ? Personally speaking, the answer is "none at all". I appreciate natural aberrations but not ones deliberately induced in a fridge or by injecting chemicals into pupae. Having said that, it is interesting to see what can happen with these treatments. I only object if the origin is hidden or the specimens are passed off as natural. As for UV treatment, the people who do that are basically fraudsters, as they never state the fact. Adam.
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Post by yorky on Feb 13, 2021 10:44:38 GMT -8
A lot of grey areas on this one as there are quite a few ways of producing these forms. First of all we have naturally occurring gynandromorphs and forms which are the most highly prized, then we have specimens bred in captivity,the sole purpose to breed hybrids and forms, then we have those Adam alluded to where temperature extremes or chemical injection are used to produce many wierd and wonderful variations. By far the most devious are the "blue forms" of ornithoptera especially priamus, victoreae and goliath which at the beginning were sold as naturally occurring variations. One such case was a seller at the AES annual show trying to pass these fakes off as such for extortive prices,he had a face like thunder when I baited him to get him to admit his deciept.
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Post by gaspipe on Feb 13, 2021 11:42:37 GMT -8
Thanks for the thoughts . I stressed my novice status because it becomes obvious to me if you do not have intimate knowledge of a species buying “ unusual “ specimens online can be risky given the many ways to alter things artificially.
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Post by kevinkk on Feb 13, 2021 17:42:43 GMT -8
I just bought my first deadstock in probably 20 years, before I get carried away, I'll exhaust the supply of my interest here in the USA, from vetted sellers. I find certain hybrids interesting,I had a pen pal- preinterent who collected gynandromorphs and was always sending me pictures of new specimens. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.. There is so much out there, and things have raised in prices for one reason or another, you can pick a species or genus, or a smattering of interesting insects. Now I know why many have entire rooms of cabinets. There are plenty of blue Ornithoptera forms on Ebay right now if you're interested.
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Post by wingedwishes on Feb 13, 2021 17:58:13 GMT -8
There was once a bright green color morph of a captive bred California King Snake at a trade show for a large sum of money. The buyer loved it until it shed its green food coloring enhanced skin to reveal that it was actually a common albino....
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Post by livingplanet3 on Feb 13, 2021 18:37:18 GMT -8
There was once a bright green color morph of a captive bred California King Snake at a trade show for a large sum of money. The buyer loved it until it shed its green food coloring enhanced skin to reveal that it was actually a common albino.... Dyed, and even tattooed, fish are a problem in the aquarium trade.
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Post by radusho on Feb 13, 2021 21:50:25 GMT -8
There is quite a difference if you alter the already spread specimen. By UV, paint, glue etc -that is fraud. The reared forms, hybdrids and aberrations are a result of a NATURAL response to an artificial imput (temperature shock in pupal stage, chemical injection into pupa, selective breeding). Such alternations can occur in nature too as it is a result of epigenetics but they are extremely rare.
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Post by bandrow on Feb 14, 2021 9:34:01 GMT -8
Greetings,
I collect primarily for scientific purposes, and therefore, have no appreciation of artificially "modified" specimens. However, I do find natural aberrations interesting, and agree that they have scientific value. While creating hybrids in captivity would technically be "artificial modification" - I don't have any issue with that as long as they are honestly stated as being such. And I do believe that is what Mendel was doing to unlock the mechanism of the basic natural process of genetically inherited traits. Too bad he couldn't have gotten rich on Ebay selling "rare" varieties of pea plants... but I suspect that orchid collectors have now exploited that realm.
Also - I'm a coleopterist, and the tinkering with beetle specimens doesn't seem to be much of an issue. I think it's simply because it's tougher to change the colors of beetle integument than it is to tweak butterfly scale color. Raising them in captivity does create extra large specimens that command crazy prices - especially in the Lucanidae and scarabs like Dynastes, but it's totally possible under perfect conditions in the wild for the specimens to attain the same size.
However, I did see a couple of specimens of Chrysina victoriana on Ebay a few months back that were an odd blue color, rather than the normal mottled orange and green. I collected some Chrysina beyeri on my first trip to Arizona many years ago, and made the rookie mistake of putting them in alcohol for storage. Imagine my horror when I got home and discovered that most of them developed dark, inky blue irreversible marks all over the body - basically ruining them. That blue was identical to the shade of blue on the C. victoriana for sale - making me suspicious that they'd been chemically treated. But they ended up selling as "top rarities" at ridiculous prices. It's not a terribly common species, but I've seen at least a hundred over the years in collections and offered for sale by a variety of dealers - and never before saw a specimen with even a hint of blue coloration. Odd that now the same dealer in Asia is getting more than one "top rarity" of a Central American species - I suspect he's more chemist than entomologist - or to not directly accuse him, has a friend who is...
I have many specimens with natural aberrations in my collection - gynandromorph cerambycids, totally melanic individuals, weird teratologies - and appreciate them for what they are - examples of how nature itself "tinkers" with its own blueprints to create new forms. Maybe it's the one tiny way that we as organisms existing for a blink of an eye in the time continuum, can get a glimpse at evolution in action...
Cheers! Bandrow
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Post by bandrow on Feb 14, 2021 9:41:11 GMT -8
Hi again,
The mention of "dyed" fish reminded me of a funny experience in college. I worked as a work-study student in the insectary at Ohio State and a coworker was one of those "get rich quick" guys. He decided he was going to create living green or orange neon-colored fish bait by feeding sarcophagid fly larvae on a diet containing color dyes. He predicted the maggots would integrate the color into their integument, and voila!! - instant fame and riches. What he got was normal pasty white maggots, with a green gut, just barely visible through the body. He then decided he needed to find a way to make that green glow...
The semester ended, and I never saw him again...
Cheers! Bandrow
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Post by yorky on Feb 14, 2021 10:14:40 GMT -8
One of the key points here is honesty. As long as the vendor is up front from the start that what you are buying is not a naturally occurring abberation then it's all good.
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Post by wingedwishes on Feb 14, 2021 12:12:24 GMT -8
I once posted this on Insectnet figuring everyone would laugh. I did not tell our members that I had painted the wings and some told me they could not figure out what species it was. www.ebay.com/itm/284162126390Incredibly, I sell a few of these on eBay. Nothing I would want but some want them.
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Post by wingedwishes on Feb 14, 2021 12:18:08 GMT -8
I do remember years ago a photo of an eclectus parrot showing a purple morph. The magazine did not give details and readers sent many letters about how abhorrent it was to cross breed birds to create such a genetic abomination. The next month the magazine printed the details about it appearing as a NATURAL MUTATION! People and their assumptions.
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