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Post by yorky on Oct 16, 2020 9:03:52 GMT -8
Been after this for a while, specimen from an old collection Attachments:
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Post by trehopr1 on Oct 16, 2020 10:05:39 GMT -8
A very nice acquisition indeed ! Spot on specimen...
I had a specimen in my collection for a few years which was acquired from an old collection. However, a collector friend visited one day and (had to have it) so, he made me a trade offer I could not refuse.
I'll probably never find another one but, then after all we are only really caretakers of our treasures and they must pass into the hands of others to enjoy someday...
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Post by yorky on Oct 16, 2020 10:40:44 GMT -8
All of mine will be passing into the hands of others in the next few years
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iroki
Full Member
Posts: 73
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Post by iroki on Oct 16, 2020 13:27:33 GMT -8
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Post by trehopr1 on Oct 16, 2020 14:08:55 GMT -8
That is a stupendous species and you have been exceptionally fortunate to have had four of them come your way.
Very nicely done all around...
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 16, 2020 14:58:33 GMT -8
Agehana is a very interesting Papilio group. Like Chilasa it is actually related to the South American species rather than Asian Papilio species. A good paper about these and the relationship with South American Papilio species is available open access here: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0140933Adam.
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Post by exoticimports on Oct 16, 2020 16:19:44 GMT -8
Agehana is a very interesting Papilio group. Like Chilasa it is actually related to the South American species rather than Asian Papilio species. A good paper about these and the relationship with South American Papilio species is available open access here: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0140933Adam. That’s amazing because it looks like a “typical” Asian species !! What factors might influence a species to evolve to resemble other regional species? |
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Post by Paul K on Oct 16, 2020 17:21:51 GMT -8
Agehana is a very interesting Papilio group. Like Chilasa it is actually related to the South American species rather than Asian Papilio species. A good paper about these and the relationship with South American Papilio species is available open access here: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0140933Adam. That’s amazing because it looks like a “typical” Asian species !! What factors might influence a species to evolve to resemble other regional species? It is all to become unpalatable looking species. It mimics Byasa polyeuctes, there is no reason to look like South American Papilio anymore living in Asia. |
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Post by trehopr1 on Oct 16, 2020 19:53:19 GMT -8
Papilio elwesi has flamboyant hind wings like that. I take it the two must be taxonomically related. Can you elaborate Adam ?
P.elwesi comes from China and Vietnam. A. maraho is endemic to Taiwan.
I do know that the two species have such dilated tails that two veins are needed to support them (unlike all other papilio).
Also, is it more correct to call both as Papilio .... or as Agehana .... since Agehana is a considered a subgenus ?
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Post by trehopr1 on Oct 16, 2020 20:03:21 GMT -8
OMG, now I just saw an elwesi specimen from a photo taken at Juvisy a couple years back and it has a tag with Chilasa elwesi above it !
HEY, what the hey is going here...
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 17, 2020 1:22:33 GMT -8
Papilio elwesi has flamboyant hind wings like that. I take it the two must be taxonomically related. Can you elaborate Adam ? P.elwesi comes from China and Vietnam. A. maraho is endemic to Taiwan. I do know that the two species have such dilated tails that two veins are needed to support them (unlike all other papilio). Also, is it more correct to call both as Papilio .... or as Agehana .... since Agehana is a considered a subgenus ? and maraho are very closely related, either sister species or subspecies of the same species. A Taiwanese researcher told me that the main reason they are considered to be separate species is political rather than scientific. It is worth pointing out that the reason that these butterflies have 2 veins in their 'tails' is that they are actually tailless species with an elongate hindwing that mimics the tails of Byasa polyeuctes. They don't have true tails, which are an extension of a single vein. P. elwesi has 2 forms, with and without a white patch on the hindwing, and the distribution of the forms mirrors polyeuctes. In much of China that species lacks a white patch, so elwesi also has a white patch. This form is known as form cavalieri, and is rare in China compared to the dark form. In Hagiang, the northernmost province of Vietnam where elwesi is also found, both species have a white patch on the hindwings. Hagiang is the only part of Vietnam that elwesi occurs, even though B. polyeuctes is found across the country. Almost certainly elwesi is restricted by the absence of the foodplant further south. In reality Agehana is a subgenus of Papilio, but if other subgenera, such as Chilasa, are treated as genera then to be consistent that should be treated as a genus too. There is a big disadvantage in splitting genera unnecessarily, as non-taxonomists will not realise that actually the different genera are related. it is better to call them Papilio subgenus x, y or z. P. maraho can be called Papilio ( Agehana) maraho if the subgenus needs to be indicated. That way people seeing the name along with Papilio ( Agehana) P. elwesi will know they are related. Adam. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 17, 2020 1:27:06 GMT -8
OMG, now I just saw an elwesi specimen from a photo taken at Juvisy a couple years back and it has a tag with Chilasa elwesi above it ! HEY, what the hey is going here... is related to Agehana, but a different subgenus. Calling it Chilasa elwesi is incorrect. Interestingly Chilasa is also related to the South American rather than Asian groups of Papilio. Adam. |
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Post by yorky on Oct 17, 2020 2:02:53 GMT -8
Quite a few cavalieri became available for purchase about 10 years ago but hardly any since, of course I purchased a few, very similar to maraho.
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Post by trehopr1 on Oct 17, 2020 8:45:57 GMT -8
Thank you indeed Adam for your kind clarifications of these lovely butterflies.
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lianj
New Member
619484197@qq.com
Posts: 5
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Post by lianj on Feb 28, 2021 23:22:39 GMT -8
Papilio elwesi has flamboyant hind wings like that. I take it the two must be taxonomically related. Can you elaborate Adam ? P.elwesi comes from China and Vietnam. A. maraho is endemic to Taiwan. I do know that the two species have such dilated tails that two veins are needed to support them (unlike all other papilio). Also, is it more correct to call both as Papilio .... or as Agehana .... since Agehana is a considered a subgenus ? Sorry to bother you, could you please tell me from which document Papilio elwesi appeared in Vietnam? I would like to find it. Thank you so much. |
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