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Post by Paul K on Sept 20, 2020 7:45:04 GMT -8
I believe there are thousands of cryptic species yet to be discover especially in the tropics where early stages of many species are still unknown and DNA samples are still have to be done. That is without a doubt. That's why I love field work in the South Pacific jungles. Always something new turning up. But you have to admit, it's rather ironic (and scientifically humbling) to find out NOW that there's an unrecognized Tiger swallowtail in the most populated part of Canada and USA. Yes, indeed it is.
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Post by eurytides on Sept 20, 2020 8:09:12 GMT -8
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Post by eurytides on Sept 20, 2020 8:16:13 GMT -8
Also, I should point out it is not enough to have the genes alone. The environmental factors have to be there as well. The spring form glaucus produces a summer generation of typical glaucus.
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Post by exoticimports on Sept 21, 2020 4:01:14 GMT -8
Great paper, thanks! It's interesting to note that Scribner et. al. noticed that something's funny in Tiger Land a long time ago. What's interesting is, from a differing perspective, is the range of yellow-female Tigers. The widespread black-female "race" is bifurcated, with an eastern limit roughly the OH/ PA line, and in the east limited to the Philly area. Somewhere between is appalachiensis in south-mid and south-western PA. This leaves the all-yellow-female race restricted to northern PA, and NY (and eastward) as an effectively boxed in by black-female, appalachiensis, and canadensis. As I previously voiced, these all-yellow-female are not as glaucus-like as the southern glaucus, and Scribner notes visual markers resembling canadensis. Going out on a limb, this all-yellow New England "race" shows some level of visual differentiation from all others, thus I label it a distinct "race" (I won't go so far as to say species or even subspecies.) And within even that, there's MST. Somewhere. But where? Looking at the location data from a variety of sources (thanks Eurytides!) it looks like MST, by whatever name, is all over the place. Scribner describes Ithaca (Tompkins Co.) to the the center of the hotspot for the unknown Tigers (assuming this IS indeed MST). I could understand MST being only on the lakeshore (and Canada) since environmentally it's unique- both fall and spring are two weeks behind the more southern regions, thanks to the lake. Or I can understand MST being relegated to the peaks of Hill Country. However, the few I've posted images of, identified as "glaucus", are from both the Lakeshore and Hill Country. Enough thoughts for now, I suppose more specimen analysis is in order, so will have to wait until I gain access to those specimens. Chuck
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Post by Paul K on Sept 21, 2020 6:06:42 GMT -8
What is the ratio of yellow to black females south of Lake Erie.
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Post by eurytides on Sept 21, 2020 8:22:27 GMT -8
I just heard back from Chris Schmidt. What they need now are appalachiensis specimens for further molecular work. I’m not sure if they need whole specimens or just a leg or two, but anyone have some spares?
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Post by Paul K on Sept 21, 2020 8:35:41 GMT -8
I just heard back from Chris Schmidt. What they need now are appalachiensis specimens for further molecular work. I’m not sure if they need whole specimens or just a leg or two, but anyone have some spares? I’m pretty sure the leg and of course correct data which comes with it is good enough for DNA and I don’t have any in my collection, so won’t be of any help. Now I’m planning to conduct more research in south part of Ontario next season near north shore of Lake Erie. I only collected there once but I wonder if and how many black females can be found there.
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Post by exoticimports on Sept 21, 2020 8:47:48 GMT -8
I just heard back from Chris Schmidt. What they need now are appalachiensis specimens for further molecular work. I’m not sure if they need whole specimens or just a leg or two, but anyone have some spares? I thought I saw a link once I started examining distribution and maps. I think I have but one specimen, even then not certain, I'd have to examine it in more detail.
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Post by exoticimports on Sept 21, 2020 8:56:59 GMT -8
near north shore of Lake Erie. I only collected there once but I wonder if and how many black females can be found there. Both BOMONA and iNuturalist show zero for Ontario CA. That would make sense in one way, since the most eastern black females shown in BOMONA are in NE Ohio, zero in NW PA, zero in NY. In fact, where the most eastern black females are reported in OH, that's the widest part of Lake Erie. Not to say they can't cross, but 99% of the time it's a prevailing NW or onshore lake breezes, so it would be a difficult crossing. I did note in looking at the photos that there is a preponderance of Ontario CA males with all extensive black HW trailing edge, no HW coloring, an uncommon color scheme in NY. Chuck
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Post by eurytides on Sept 21, 2020 9:35:27 GMT -8
Rarely, melanic females are seen at Point Pelee in Canada. I don’t think they occur outside of that region.
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Post by Paul K on Sept 21, 2020 10:22:50 GMT -8
Based on Ontario Butterfly Atlas black female was recorded near Long Point probably in St.Wiliams forest. However P.troilus is also not uncommon there and maybe these two where confused as most of the records are sightings.
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Sept 21, 2020 13:39:10 GMT -8
I have been at this a lot longer than most of you, and, I have collected extensively in the in the Eastern USA.
I also think that Papilio canadensis is more than likely a single brood of Papilio glaucus that only flies in late May to early July.
I also think that the farther North you collect, in Wisconsin, Michigan and Canada, especially southern Canada, you will find a mix of Papilio canadensis and "near" glaucus.
Just my thoughts....
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Post by exoticimports on Sept 23, 2020 4:34:54 GMT -8
Based on Ontario Butterfly Atlas black female was recorded near Long Point probably in St.Wiliams forest. However P.troilus is also not uncommon there and maybe these two where confused as most of the records are sightings. It has been my experience that observation reports of species ("data")is highly suspect when the reporter is not a lepidopterist. Bird watchers are notorious for being lax in their identifications- not just leps but birds as well. They are a well meaning bunch, but some are so excitable that they'll stretch an observation so they can add a checkmark on their bird book; with leps it's even worse. A local group maintains a list of observed leps which includes many obvious (i.e., impossible or improbable) "observations." Photos on BOMONA and iNaturalist are far better than nothing. But as can be observed in this discussion on Tigers, it's clear that the photographed specimen is often tossed into the wrong ID. If one looks at the purported ranges of canadensis, glaucus, and appalachiensis there is immense overlap to the point that one would conclude they are cospecific. Chuck
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Post by foxxdoc on Sept 23, 2020 5:57:38 GMT -8
Differing opinions on this species. What is the basis for determining canadensis a legitimate species ? Were there DNA studies ?
Tom
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Post by Adam Cotton on Sept 23, 2020 8:18:18 GMT -8
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