Notes on Papilio glaucus and canadensis in NY: Finger Lakes

[exoticimports]

Looks like I opened a can of worms that’s bigger than I ever imagined. I see many hours of work in my future. Ugh.

[exoticimports]

I'm finding all of this very interesting.

From about 100,000 years ago until less than 18,000 years ago, various extreme cooling (and warming) events covered much of what is not occupied by Papilio canadensis.

The latest, less than 18,000 years ago, was the Laurentide Ice Sheet:




Of interest to reference, a study of Hemileuca maia (https://bioone.org/journals/The-Journal-of-the-Lepidopterists-Society/volume-74/issue-1/lepi.74i1.a3/An-Interpretation-of-the-Impact-of-the-Wisconsin-Glaciation-on/10.18473/lepi.74i1.a3.short) repatriation following the Wisconsin ice sheet indicates that the moth spread northward with warming, following the expansion of foodplants. One would think this is immediately applicable to Papilio as well.



Now, one of the studies indicated that canadensis and glaucus split roughly 400,000 years ago. My question then, is where did they go during the Laurentide period? Presumably, canadensis and glaucus would have been pushed south, with range overlap compressing (perhaps the advent of appalachiensis?). Also I presume that canadensis could have been limited to the foodplants of higher elevations (e.g., Appalachian mountains) but that, at the time, would have been a very restricted range. Then, when the ice retreats, canadensis (repeatedly) re-populates northward, ahead of glaucus.

I dunno. It strikes me as odd (unlikely?) that two species, one of which is less capable of survival in southern climates, could be pushed south, and bounce back, with ranges relatively respected and without significant interbreeding. As Eurytides inferred (or stated, if I read correctly) there is a zone where both species occur, and indeed do interbreed. I suppose a further examination of specimens from that zone may shed some more light (or, perhaps, it's already been done.)

Chuck

[Paul K]

I think most of insect fauna was pushed to far south ( Texas, Florida )
This mass of ice effected most of the continent being cold or very cold similar to today’s tundra and taiga.
Cooling and warming take thousands of years so I suppose as you mentioned P.glaucus was inhabiting southern parts and canadensis north of glaucus zone.

[exoticimports]

Saw one tiger yesterday in Cayuga Co, and one today in Ontario Co. both missing substantial area of the hindwings. Today’s flew into a Poplar tree and sat, came out for 30 seconds and back on the tree. I could not observe what it was doing.

Returned to the clover field that was very active a month ago. Still 30% flowering. No tigers. Oddly did see a fresh male polyxenes. Stunning bright red monarchs are abundant

[exoticimports]

For matter of record, yesterday (03 Sept) I returned to the field of yellow cup-leaf flowers (Aster), where I'd observed many Papilio glaucus. Over the course of ten minutes, I saw none. Neither have I seen glaucus anywhere during the early days of September. Presumably they are done.

Also notable, I returned to a field where I'd observed Speyeria Cybele only last week; here too- no Tigers, no cybele.

P tharos, C philodice, C eurytheme (male), and monarchs continue to fly. I did see one Papilio, either polyxenes or troilus, yesterday.


But in all it looks like the season for butterflies is about wrapped up.


Chuck

[Paul K]

Same on this side of the lake. Yesterday ( Sep 3 ) I saw same species as you did except no Papilio ( I saw one P.polyxenes female ovipositing about a week ego).

[Paul K]

Today September 12 I went to check out a local wasteland in western Toronto and I was surprised to find 12 species still active.

Papilio polyxenes
Pieris rapae
Colias philodice
Colias eurytheme
Phyciodes cocyta
Nymphalis l-album
Nymphalis antiopa
Vanessa atalanta
Junonia coenia
Limenitis archippus
Danaus plexippus
Cupido comyntas

[leptraps]

You guys made me go look. I have eleven drawers of Papilio glaucus. I have specimens from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan from May, June and early July. North East Ohio. Late April, May, June July and August and a late September specimen.

Virginia:

South West Virginia from late March to early September. I have an early October specimen in excellent condition from Poverty Hollow, Montgomery County. Along the New River near Austinburg, Wythe County I have specimens from late September and from Carroll County,I have several specimens which includes several "dark" females.

The most interesting area was on the North side of Big Jack Mountain near Blue Grass. They appeared in late April and the late record was 16 September 1981. However, the wide Valley on the south side of Big Jack Mountain by late August they were done for the year.

Eastern Virginia and Eastern North Carolina:

Late February to early September. The spring specimens were typical. However, the late August early September specimen were monsters.

I will skip to Florida. Although I collected them in northern Florida from March to late September. In the Pan Handle they could be found from early March to early October. From Lake Okeechobee north they began to fly in March and ended by mid October. However, the most incredible location was Jane's Scenic Drive in Fakahatchee Strand WMA in Collier County. In early September they could be monstrous. I never found them in the Florida Key's.

I have read several paper's on Papilio glaucus, subspecies include canadensis, australus and maynardi. There are numbers of forms. Here in NE Ohio I only see dark females in July, August and early September.

I have made many collecting trips to western Kentucky. I have several specimens from early October.

The debate over what are "subspecies", "forms" and "species" continues to this day.

I would encourage you to collect specimens from your area. Especially dark females.

I collected some wild looking females in Virginia that were part yellow and part black.

Does anybody North of the Great Lake's find Papilio glaucus in September, especially late September or even early October??

[Paul K]

I have never seen P.glaucus in September here in southern Ontario.
Late August would be the last sighting.

[exoticimports]

I have seen glaucus on the south side of Lake Ontario in September, including last year. Not this year. Definitely finished.

[exoticimports]

Leroy, thanks for you observations. Your previously posted photo of maynardi is spectacular.

It's ironic that something so common is yet ill defined. As a kid, many of our reference volumes spoke only of P glaucus and two broods. We now know that it's more than one species, the two broods in some regions are two species, these species interbreed, and the ranges are changing. Data is also often incorrect, particularly that based on historic records, and now photos alone which are insufficient to determine where an observed (photographed only) specimen fits, yet it gets pigeon-holed and becomes "data"- flawed data.

It would be incredible to have an exhaustive study of the thousands of existing specimens.

I suppose it's been done before, however I cannot find anything that accurately indicates where the cline is for the dark female; and I wonder the genetic difference from the race(?) with the yellow female.

On that topic a search of butterfliesandmoths.org (recognizing the suspect nature of the data) shows, for the dark female form: 0 of 191 for New York; PA has 419 records, and while I didn't count the black females, there are plenty there, from central PA and particularly around Philadelphia.

This is of interest to me personally, as in the mid 1980s I twice surveyed the Brandy Wine Valley (Chester, PA area) and observed plenty of yellow glaucus, but zero black glaucus. Notably, contemporary records of black females from this same region are now abundant!

Unfortunately, butterfliesandmoths.org photo records for glaucus in PA start in 2010, which is about the same time that glaucus and cresphontes moved north into the Finger Lakes NY region, arguably due to warming. Thus, a study on possible northward migration of the black-female race will require data accumulation from the good ol' standby- curated specimens.

Chuck

[58chevy]

Does anybody have data on the range of "intermediate" glaucus (somewhat dark but also yellow)? I find both dark form and yellow form in my area (Houston, TX), but I've never seen an intermediate form. I'd like to collect some specimens, but don't know where to go.

[exoticimports]

Sept 13, 2020 6:59:31 GMT -8 58chevy said:

Does anybody have data on the range of "intermediate" glaucus (somewhat dark but also yellow)? I find both dark form and yellow form in my area (Houston, TX), but I've never seen an intermediate form. I'd like to collect some specimens, but don't know where to go.

Need a project? Go thru butterfliesandmoths.org for Papilio glaucus and record the location of intermediate forms. Having recently looked at it, I can tell you that the form seems to be common in SE PA. Here's the images for PA, no way to break out only the intermediate form, but you'll see them www.butterfliesandmoths.org/species/Papilio-glaucus?region=45174&sort_by=field_recorddate_value&sort_order=DESC


Only seven images for Delaware, but one is intermediate www.butterfliesandmoths.org/species/Papilio-glaucus?region=45182&sort_by=field_recorddate_value&sort_order=DESC

75 records for NJ, including black and intermediate, though the intermediate seem more black than in PA www.butterfliesandmoths.org/species/Papilio-glaucus?region=45202&sort_by=field_recorddate_value&sort_order=DESC

110 records for MD; mostly yellow but a few black and intermediate (note also some spectacular specimens) www.butterfliesandmoths.org/species/Papilio-glaucus?region=45202&sort_by=field_recorddate_value&sort_order=DESC

115 records for WV, including black and a couple dusky intermediate www.butterfliesandmoths.org/species/Papilio-glaucus?region=45202&sort_by=field_recorddate_value&sort_order=DESC

219 records for VA; oddly low proportion of black specimens, not reflective of my observations in VA; a few intermediate www.butterfliesandmoths.org/species/Papilio-glaucus?region=45202&sort_by=field_recorddate_value&sort_order=DESC

216 records for OH; only one I consider truly intermediate www.butterfliesandmoths.org/species/Papilio-glaucus?region=45206&sort_by=field_recorddate_value&sort_order=DESC

So, for the NE, it looks like SE PA is currently the known hot spot for both black and intermediate. Now, scrolling again through PA, the proportion of photo records (which, again, take with a grain of salt) of dark females decreases with record age- and that's over the course of only about five years.

But of course, as of right now the PA flight period is over; most recent record is 03 Sept, and prior to that 20 August.

Chuck

[exoticimports]

Aug 19, 2020 11:03:52 GMT -8 Paul K said:

P.glaucus does not occur in Kingston,

I just re-read this, and it made me wonder.

I observed Papilio glaucus in Clayton NY in early August 2020.

Kingston to Clayton is 32km (20 miles).

Latitudes: Kingston 44.23, Clayton 44.14; a difference in latitude of less than 10km.

Granted, there is a river of separation, and I know places in my own town where glaucus is either absent or common; yet, I find it difficult to believe glaucus is on the south side of the river but not the north.


Chuck

[Paul K]

Sept 13, 2020 8:08:17 GMT -8 exoticimports said:

Aug 19, 2020 11:03:52 GMT -8 Paul K said:

P.glaucus does not occur in Kingston,

I just re-read this, and it made me wonder.

I observed Papilio glaucus in Clayton NY in early August 2020.

Kingston to Clayton is 32km (20 miles).

Latitudes: Kingston 44.23, Clayton 44.14; a difference in latitude of less than 10km.

Granted, there is a river of separation, and I know places in my own town where glaucus is either absent or common; yet, I find it difficult to believe glaucus is on the south side of the river but not the north.


Chuck

This is according to Eurytides who lives in Kingston and studies P.glaucus and canadensis. He told me that in Kingston area only P.canadensis occurs.

[exoticimports]

Sept 13, 2020 9:19:58 GMT -8 Paul K said:

Sept 13, 2020 8:08:17 GMT -8 exoticimports said:

I just re-read this, and it made me wonder.

I observed Papilio glaucus in Clayton NY in early August 2020.

Kingston to Clayton is 32km (20 miles).

Latitudes: Kingston 44.23, Clayton 44.14; a difference in latitude of less than 10km.

Granted, there is a river of separation, and I know places in my own town where glaucus is either absent or common; yet, I find it difficult to believe glaucus is on the south side of the river but not the north.


Chuck

This is according to Eurytides who lives in Kingston and studies P.glaucus and canadensis. He told me that in Kingston area only P.canadensis occurs.

Interesting- I didn't catch it, but I saw it closely and it was definitely tending toward glaucus, as all do at that time of year. Maybe he'll chime in.

Chuck

[eurytides]

We have two flights of tiger swallowtails in Kingston, ON. The first flight is P. canadensis. The second flight is a mysterious population which isn’t canadensis, glaucus, or F1 hybrid. This is currently under investigation. I haven’t see the material from south of the river. It might be glaucus or it might be this mystery tiger. See the article I posted earlier.

[exoticimports]

Sept 13, 2020 12:05:04 GMT -8 eurytides said:

We have two flights of tiger swallowtails in Kingston, ON. The first flight is P. canadensis. The second flight is a mysterious population which isn’t canadensis, glaucus, or F1 hybrid. This is currently under investigation. I haven’t see the material from south of the river. It might be glaucus or it might be this mystery tiger. See the article I posted earlier.

Yeah, I read that. Great read- except like a mystery novel where the killer still isn't identified. So give us a hint- what do you think it is?

Chuck

[exoticimports]

Here's some articles eurytides referenced, and that they reference:

www.ontarioinsects.org/publications/Summaries/2019_tigers.pdf

www.ontarioinsects.org/Publications/Summaries/2017_tigers.pdf

www.researchgate.net/publication/316654617_Papilio_canadensis_and_P_glaucus_Papilionidae_are_distinct_species

bryanpfeiffer.com/taming-the-tigers/

www.inaturalist.org/taxa/57463-Papilio-canadensis

www.inaturalist.org/taxa/60551-Papilio-glaucus

www.inaturalist.org/taxa/468756-Papilio-canadensis---glaucus


Reading all this, my take-away is that there may be a third (not canadensis, not glaucus, not hybrid) species that inhabits a very narrow ribbon roughly along the Great Lakes.

I need to do further investigation myself, as what I'm seeing in this area are more like canadensis, particularly in the early flight; however even the later flight (MTS they call it) has more canadensis attributes than glaucus attributes.

Chuck

[eurytides]

I’ve seen some of the prelim molecular data (publication pending) and to me, it looks like we have a localized cryptic species, sort of like appalachiensis. It probably originated as some sort of hybrid between canadensis and glaucus a long time ago when the ice sheets were doing their thing and causing various tiger swallowtail populations to shift and fragment. This mystery tiger takes a lot longer to break diapause and emerge later in the summer, which is why for a long time people thought this was glaucus. There is a good degree of temporal reproductive isolation from canadensis, which is univoltine.

I’m raising some of this mystery tiger swallowtail currently and it looks like it also has one generation and is an obligate diapauser.

[exoticimports]

So lemme get this straight.

In the 70s and 80s we had a TS that flew early summer. It’s not canadensis since that species stays north of MTA. I’ll go so far as to say it’s not glaucus because the females are yellow. So it is....?

Then a decade or so the Mystery Tiger Swallowtail starts flying in later summer. It’s neither canadensis nor glaucus. So it’s something new.

Meanwhile glaucus has pushed up to southern PA following MTS exit. Except they interbreed, thus the mixed females.

So south of Lake Ontario we have two tigers, both neither canadensis nor glaucus.

This is like being confused on how to drive a Honda Accord.

Chuck

[Paul K]

It looks like I took photo of Midsummer tiger (mystery tiger) on 3 July at 40º03'32.3"N 79º19'19.1"W. ( aprox. 10km east of Newmarket, Ontario ) 
Until now I was sure these are P.glaucus as they are large size and were spotted in July.
after examine a photo they are looking more like P.canadensis but of the size of glaucus.
It is a pity I did not collect them thought they were P.glaucus.

[eurytides]

Sept 13, 2020 16:00:30 GMT -8 exoticimports said:

So lemme get this straight.

In the 70s and 80s we had a TS that flew early summer. It’s not canadensis since that species stays north of MTA. I’ll go so far as to say it’s not glaucus because the females are yellow. So it is....?

Then a decade or so the Mystery Tiger Swallowtail starts flying in later summer. It’s neither canadensis nor glaucus. So it’s something new.

Meanwhile glaucus has pushed up to southern PA following MTS exit. Except they interbreed, thus the mixed females.

So south of Lake Ontario we have two tigers, both neither canadensis nor glaucus.

This is like being confused on how to drive a Honda Accord.

Chuck

Sorry, not sure what “MTA” means? Also, you will have to be more specific. What exact does “early summer” mean? I would say canadensis flies early summer. Also, just because there are no black females doesn’t mean it’s not glaucus. The more north you go, the less the proportion of melanic females because the pipevine swallowtails become scarcer. There are populations of glaucus in southern Ontario that don’t have any black females, but are bivoltine and feed on tuliptree.

Interesting theory about the semi melanic females being hybrids. I can’t say either way since I’m not sure how the genetics work here. I always thought melanism was a single gene trait? Bottom line is, we need more molecular work, rearing data, etc.

[eurytides]

Paul, those are probably MST. That early in July, there wouldn’t have been enough time for a second generation of glaucus to eclose yet.

[58chevy]

Thanks for the info, Chuck. Looks like I'll have to wait until next year.