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Post by wingedwishes on Jul 15, 2020 11:17:41 GMT -8
A couple of years ago, I was planning a trip to Panama to collect. Then the wife passed away. Now with things settled and relocated, I'm going to try again. The question is this:
Where would you go to collect?
Here are the variables:
I have a teenage child who will be going too.
I am not looking for rarity so much as quantity.
It'd be nice to pay for a guide.
Paperwork is fine. I already do most of it at the bringing species into the country.
No CITES.
Will be collecting and recording gps location as well as time of day, temperature, humidity, etc.
Have looked into:
French Guyana - 1000 limit might be a problem. Panama-Permits but would travel with someone with a Panama permit.
Other than frowning at the quantity part of my post, where would you go and why?
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Post by nomihoudai on Jul 15, 2020 13:15:58 GMT -8
Colombia is becoming more accessible and very touristic in the last years. Peru is pretty accessible an has a great butterfly fauna. Ecuador also has a great fauna, but I don't know how safe the country is after Covid-19 has ravaged it. Brazil is obviously off limits because of the laws. French Guiana seems to be pretty fine if you do the island hoping through the Caribbean to get there. I might go to French Guiana next year, supposed Covid-19 gets tamed. Please note that I have never set foot in South America, I have only been in Costa Rica before and I miss it thoroughly, good times.
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Post by jshuey on Jul 15, 2020 17:51:04 GMT -8
when you say quantity - what groups are you talking about? Insects in general, or just butterflies? If it's just butterflies - then the Andes should be your target (from what others tell me - never been there personally). But if you are just general collecting, then anywhere with an easy permit system may work.
FYI - you will never get a permit for Columbia..., biut there is a guy in Peru that "guides" people for collecting (I assume with a permit), and I can tell you how to get a Belize permit fairly easily.
john
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 16, 2020 3:11:35 GMT -8
The problem with Belize is that darned distraction of warm seas and small island life. So go somewhere that’s just dirty jungle.
Ecuador offers multiple climate zones within hours drive. However it’s gotten rather dodgy.
Chile would be neat, i have no idea if permits are available. But the seafood is awesome.
Chuck
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Post by Paul K on Jul 16, 2020 4:05:44 GMT -8
Peru sounds very good and there is a guide who organize all collecting and all permits. Here is the link www.amazoninsect.com/satipo.html. I was planning to use this company but it is not cheap though so the trip has to be postponed.
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Post by foxxdoc on Jul 16, 2020 6:59:46 GMT -8
many variables.
permits !!!!! money time. for me Copa Airlines changed a lot. I live north of Tampa. Copa has direct flights. no lost days in Miami to change planes and then double back.
going to a place that offers lodging and collecting is a plus. offers a guide and help with permits. sounds like French Guyana has it. Rhondonia in Brazil has it, but getting there is a drudge. my favorite is Equador because of the mountains. you can go from sea level to frost in 1 days travel.
TOM
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Post by jshuey on Jul 16, 2020 17:43:09 GMT -8
One thing to remember, there are seasons in the tropics. People often go to Central America during the northern Winter. Well that's the dry season in much of Central America, and the collecting generally sucks. And the start of the rainy season has become very erratic thanks to climate change. This is less of a problem in South America.
j
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 17, 2020 3:52:54 GMT -8
One thing to remember, there are seasons in the tropics. j EXCELLENT advise, John! People tend to think that "the tropics" are just warm, sunny jungle. This is particularly so for more northern dwellers, who's frame of reference may be "snow" or "heat." There sure as heck are seasons, even in the endless seasons of mid/southern Florida, as can be observed by the species flying (or not) at given times of the year. In Ecuador, in Solomon Islands, in Florida, I've observed over short (2 week) periods an incredible change in species density- what wasn't flying when I arrived is now in abundance, what was flying is now worn and in short supply. Also to add, on mountainous islands (and some inshore locations, depending on winds) there is a dry side and a wet side. Take the main island in Fiji, Viti Levu. The island does have a wet season and dry season, yet the wet side (Suva) experiences almost daily rain any time of the year, while the dry side (Nadi) experiences primarily dry, arid weather year-round. Then, of course are weather events like cyclones, the rains of which can change fauna overnight. Those who've been to Maui and O'ahu have also observed this wet side/ dry side geography. A bit off topic, but many years ago on Maui my travel companions complained that they sat in the hotel all day and watched it pour rain. Perplexed at first, I realized they didn't know about wet side/ dry side- we'd spent the day on the other side, enjoying the sun! That's where local knowledge is significant. A guide/ trip coordinator can advise the best time to visit. Also, if after specific genera/ species, look at capture records for dates; just as cecropia doesn't fly in Ohio in December, D hercules has a short season in Napo Ecuador. Chuck
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Post by wingedwishes on Aug 29, 2020 9:53:47 GMT -8
Having lived in Florida for 25 years (Now in the Mid West) I'm familiar with seasonal variances in tropical climes. Belize may be a good choice also. FYI the ocean would not be a distraction. I've been diving as work for 10 years 5x/week.
The groups I'm most interested in collecting are: Saturnids Dynastids (I'd like to find a Chrysina) Morphos Cerambicids
If the permits were obtainable, are there any local collectors to buy from also?
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Post by wingedwishes on Oct 18, 2020 10:25:25 GMT -8
when you say quantity - what groups are you talking about? Insects in general, or just butterflies? If it's just butterflies - then the Andes should be your target (from what others tell me - never been there personally). But if you are just general collecting, then anywhere with an easy permit system may work. FYI - you will never get a permit for Columbia..., biut there is a guy in Peru that "guides" people for collecting (I assume with a permit), and I can tell you how to get a Belize permit fairly easily. john John, do you know a person in Belize who could: Guide us (for a fee) to collecting spots, show us where to stay, and may know locals I could buy insects from?
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Post by jshuey on Oct 19, 2020 5:39:35 GMT -8
The quick answer is nope! Really, no one in Belize swings a net anymore. Jan Meerman used to, but he photographs now.
But, you don't need no stinkin guides in Belize. All you really need is a 4-wheel drive rental, and a permit! The easiest way to get a permit now is through Pooks Hill Lodge - give them about 6 months lead time though. Once you have that permit, you can collect at Pooks Hill Lodge and on other private land. And the permit gets you through customs back into the states (assuming that you jump though all those hoops as well).Some other places to stay run MV lights for bugs as well, and are collector friendly (Hickatee Cottages comes to mind). But I'd bring my own light if I were you - they use the frosted MV lamps, that are really bright but attract a lot less than you would expect!
Belize is just in the process of re-opening to tourism right now. To enter the country, you have to have a negative Covid test within the last 72 hours, but you are only allowed to stay in accommodations that are "gold standard certified" to limit potential Covid spread. I'm not too sure what the gold standard is, but its more about practices - not like 5-star hotels. My guess is that almost all the decent accommodations will move to this standard, given that they are desperate for business.
If you are serious about this, let me know your preliminary itinerary and what you want to accomplish. I can point you towards areas that are right in the middle of it all (hickatee for example has trails and a long dirt road through secondary forest) and day trips that take you into new habitats. I always recommend 2 weeks, which will let you spend a few days at 3 to 4 nice spots (I bait trap a lot, and it takes a few days to get a solid sample). The rainy season used to start in May, but now late June to July, and runs through October - November. Late rainy season is best for skippers!! The beginning of rainy season is best for hairstreaks - but timing a trip for the beginning has become a total crap shoot lately. And as long as it is raining once every few nights, all the rest of the stuff will be pretty nice.
j
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Post by wingedwishes on Oct 20, 2020 13:08:19 GMT -8
Great to read! A lodge can serve as a guide to a degree. I'd just need places to permissibly collect. Is Pooks Hill Lodge on an area large enough to spend 10+ days? I think we would travel there based on recommendations. aka - wetter months. August or early September?
We - (Myself and daughter) are very serious about this. So here are questions and info to make planning easier:
1. All hoops and FWS jumps will be performed. 2. On leps - I am not specialized except maybe Hamadryas. Morphos to Heliconians in size. I always have difficulty pinning hairstreaks though my daughter does not. 3. On Coleoptera - Chrysina or Cerambycidae are favored but not limited to. 4. While I am an experienced reptile hunter with hot experience (venomous) I'm not going to do more than photograph them. 5. I will be heavily documenting collection data including GPS, time of day, photos, videos etc. 6. Might the lodge know locals who would sell specimens too?
Thanks for the intel!
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Post by wingedwishes on Oct 20, 2020 13:30:18 GMT -8
Hickatee website looks like what we want but do they allow collecting? Website states: We allow no logging, hunting, or fishing.... I know, I should ask them. The Fallen Stones butterfly farm associated with Hickatee makes me wonder if they could have dead stock.
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Post by jshuey on Oct 21, 2020 8:56:58 GMT -8
Back to the buy specimen thing - NOPE!!!! This just is not a thing in Belize like it is elsewhere. Jan and his spouse, Tineke, were the only two people in Belize I've ever heard of who collected bugs. But they could not control psocids, and the collection was eaten up, scale by scale. I salvaged some material, but in hindsight, wish I would have grabbed more. I also want to express my ignorance about the "tourist spots and hotels" of Belize. We usually stay in camps in protected areas or parks, so I have little experience with the Belize most people see. There are probably lots of really great places that work for collectors, but I'm just sort of ignorant about commercial spots.... There are at least two butterfly farms in Belize, and perhaps they can sell you bugs. One is associated with Hickatee and the other is Jan's old place - www.greenhillsbelize.com/contact/ (no accommodations here). If you are doing a 10-15+ day trip, here is an menu for an itinerary that may work for you. (One thing to note, if you are bringing a light, many places will want to charge you extra to run it. BZ electricity is very expensive, and some of the places below are entirely off the grid - and a MV light may end up draining them entirely!). Step 1 - Start at Pooks Hill, because they are going to get you your permit and it's also a nice place to collect (very collector friendly). (http://pookshilllodge.com/). Like I said - this will take around 6 months to get the permit and there will be a fee for getting it, plus the permit itself ($100us for the permit). Pook's Hill is surrounded by karst forest with lots of trails - but not very close to anything. You will have to eat there most likely. Step 2 - go someplace else! Here are some sites I really like. Head west to the very basic Trek Stop (https://www.facebook.com/TrekStopTropicalWings/). Trek stop is a very fun and cheap place to stay, with access to lots of second growth forest along trails and the dirt road to the west. Basically just cabins large enough for beds... outside kitchen, showers etc... You can cook for yourself, eat at their small place, or walk/drive out to town to eat. There are a couple of amazing Maya restaurants in San Jose Succutz. Trek Stop used to have a butterfly house, but I don't know now. You can walk to the ruins at Xunantunich (which are worth it), into town to eat and so on. Not quite as far to the west, Sweet Songs is mid-range - near the Mopan River (https://sweetsongslodge.com/). You have access to the beach along the river (pulled 2 country records out of there last summer) and a long dirt road for collecting that comes into the site. They have a really nice place to eat on site, or you and drive into town. A friend specifically reserved an isolated cabin so that they could run a light a couple of years ago. (There are other, higher end places in the immediate vicinity). Belize Zoo has cabins and "luxury tents" for rent in the savanna next to the zoo. First, the zoo is simply unique - all rescued animals, all native to Belize. And a very nice setting. You can collect discretely in the savanna and trails around the cabins, and you would be a bit surprised by what you find in this seemingly harsh habitat. But it is not nearly as rich as forest. Step 3 - go south. First the Humming Bird HW is a wonderful drive - but watch out for the single lane bridges. There are lots of resorts that you can research on their own. I've only stayed at Ian Anderson's Cave Branch, and no, he is not that Ian Anderson (I asked him). These resorts are pretty developed, and I did not collect at Cave Branch - just too many people around... . But there are some lower end places that would probably be great. You can keep on driving south - all he way to Hickatee if you want, or you can stay at many of the places along the southern HW. The only place I've stayed that you can collect at may be in Mayflower National Park, which has a private resort right in the middle (https://www.bocawina.com/). If you go during our summer, I bet you will be the only guests in the park and can collect - but I would check first. I was there as the park was being created, so it was not a problem back then. Again, there are other places located next to forest along the southern HW that would certainly work. Try Big Falls area - it always looked good as we drove by. In the south, Hickatee is the only place near Punta Gorda I've stayed that I have ever taken my wife back to (all the others are basically just huts with lots of collecting opportunities inside the hut). But it is an ideal location, in forest that receives about twice as much rain as does the forest in central Belize. A short drive back into Punta Gorda, and you can dine at really great Garifuna places (lionfish is superb!). This is the real lowland forest - flat, muddy, wet and lush - and Hickatee is right in the middle. Yes, we have collected there on several occasions - just give Ian a heads up. They have about a mile of trail, but the last two times I was there it was so wet that I spent most of my time on roadsides, where bugs came out to warm up. The downside is that they are off the grid, and running a MV light after the generator is shut off is not an option, but if you have florescent or LED - that would probably work. You can go north if you want, but northern Belize gets very dry, receiving only about 1/3rd the rain of southern Belize. Some really interesting bugs up there (you mentioned Hamadryas, and Hamadryas julitta sneaks into the very northern part of the country) but diversity goes down as you head north in Belize. The Copper Bank Inn (https://corozal.bz/276) is as good as it gets up there. I'm willing to bet that you will be the only people staying there, and you can walk south through some great scrub-forest habitats. I've never run a light there, but the back of the place faces scrub forest. Otherwise, there is nothing to do there. I have no friggin idea why someone thought building this pretty nice hotel was a good idea... If you go out to the Cayes, there are places on North Ambergris that are fairly isolated and with adjacent forest you can collect in. We booked a room at Sapphire Beach Resort though airbnb but there were a zillion choices... All these places can get you out on the reef for a day of diving. Mosquitos are hell in the forests. I'm sure there are many other places. Just use Google Earth to see what they are surrounded by, and if there is adjacent forest - you are probably good to go. Collecting in Belize - no one is going to give you crap unless you are in a protected area and they are a ranger or you are in someone's front yard. You have to have bait traps, and you have to stay at each place long enough to let them work - 2-3 days. I take 4 traps minimum - but honestly, the more the better. Every trap gets something different over a few days. By the way, your permit should be good for 12 months. Plan a second trip! Hope this helps, John
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Post by wingedwishes on Oct 21, 2020 12:16:07 GMT -8
High praise to John!
This is what we needed! So Pooks Hill will be contacted next week by me. I will contact some of the others as well as ask butterfly farms to save their dead if possible. As long as the collecting is good, I will continue to collect in Pooks Hill. Then, move on.
As long as you have been so gracious in answering questions....I have 3 more:
1. Bringing a light from the USA seems delicate. Are there places there who sell or rent them? 2. If I wanted top use GoogleMaps to get around, how is cell phone reception in the cities? 3. My biggest nets have 8' handles. I know there are longer ones for higher 'canopy' reach (20'). What nets do you use? ok 4...or 5 4. I've used this bait - Molasses, brown sugar, rum, and rotting bananas. What do you think? 5. Pitfall traps for beetles.....Ever used them?
Many thanks! Tyson
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