Where would you go in South/Central America?

[wingedwishes]

A couple of years ago, I was planning a trip to Panama to collect. Then the wife passed away. Now with things settled and relocated, I'm going to try again. The question is this:

Where would you go to collect?

Here are the variables:

I have a teenage child who will be going too.

I am not looking for rarity so much as quantity.

It'd be nice to pay for a guide.

Paperwork is fine. I already do most of it at the bringing species into the country.

No CITES.

Will be collecting and recording gps location as well as time of day, temperature, humidity, etc.

Have looked into:

French Guyana - 1000 limit might be a problem.
Panama-Permits but would travel with someone with a Panama permit.

Other than frowning at the quantity part of my post, where would you go and why?

[nomihoudai]

Colombia is becoming more accessible and very touristic in the last years. Peru is pretty accessible an has a great butterfly fauna. Ecuador also has a great fauna, but I don't know how safe the country is after Covid-19 has ravaged it. Brazil is obviously off limits because of the laws. French Guiana seems to be pretty fine if you do the island hoping through the Caribbean to get there. I might go to French Guiana next year, supposed Covid-19 gets tamed. Please note that I have never set foot in South America, I have only been in Costa Rica before and I miss it thoroughly, good times.

[jshuey]

when you say quantity - what groups are you talking about? Insects in general, or just butterflies? If it's just butterflies - then the Andes should be your target (from what others tell me - never been there personally). But if you are just general collecting, then anywhere with an easy permit system may work.

FYI - you will never get a permit for Columbia..., biut there is a guy in Peru that "guides" people for collecting (I assume with a permit), and I can tell you how to get a Belize permit fairly easily.

john

[exoticimports]

The problem with Belize is that darned distraction of warm seas and small island life. So go somewhere that’s just dirty jungle.

Ecuador offers multiple climate zones within hours drive. However it’s gotten rather dodgy.

Chile would be neat, i have no idea if permits are available. But the seafood is awesome.


Chuck

[Paul K]

Peru sounds very good and there is a guide who organize all collecting and all permits.
Here is the link www.amazoninsect.com/satipo.html.
I was planning to use this company but it is not cheap though so the trip has to be postponed.

[foxxdoc]

many variables.

permits !!!!!

money

time.

for me Copa Airlines changed a lot. I live north of Tampa. Copa has direct flights. no lost days in Miami to change planes and then double back.

going to a place that offers lodging and collecting is a plus. offers a guide and help with permits. sounds like French Guyana has it. Rhondonia in Brazil has it, but getting there is a drudge.

my favorite is Equador because of the mountains. you can go from sea level to frost in 1 days travel.

TOM

[jshuey]

One thing to remember, there are seasons in the tropics. People often go to Central America during the northern Winter. Well that's the dry season in much of Central America, and the collecting generally sucks. And the start of the rainy season has become very erratic thanks to climate change. This is less of a problem in South America.

j

[exoticimports]

Jul 16, 2020 17:43:09 GMT -8 jshuey said:

One thing to remember, there are seasons in the tropics.
j

EXCELLENT advise, John!

People tend to think that "the tropics" are just warm, sunny jungle. This is particularly so for more northern dwellers, who's frame of reference may be "snow" or "heat."


There sure as heck are seasons, even in the endless seasons of mid/southern Florida, as can be observed by the species flying (or not) at given times of the year.

In Ecuador, in Solomon Islands, in Florida, I've observed over short (2 week) periods an incredible change in species density- what wasn't flying when I arrived is now in abundance, what was flying is now worn and in short supply.

Also to add, on mountainous islands (and some inshore locations, depending on winds) there is a dry side and a wet side. Take the main island in Fiji, Viti Levu. The island does have a wet season and dry season, yet the wet side (Suva) experiences almost daily rain any time of the year, while the dry side (Nadi) experiences primarily dry, arid weather year-round. Then, of course are weather events like cyclones, the rains of which can change fauna overnight.

Those who've been to Maui and O'ahu have also observed this wet side/ dry side geography. A bit off topic, but many years ago on Maui my travel companions complained that they sat in the hotel all day and watched it pour rain. Perplexed at first, I realized they didn't know about wet side/ dry side- we'd spent the day on the other side, enjoying the sun!

That's where local knowledge is significant. A guide/ trip coordinator can advise the best time to visit. Also, if after specific genera/ species, look at capture records for dates; just as cecropia doesn't fly in Ohio in December, D hercules has a short season in Napo Ecuador.

Chuck

[wingedwishes]

Having lived in Florida for 25 years (Now in the Mid West) I'm familiar with seasonal variances in tropical climes. Belize may be a good choice also. FYI the ocean would not be a distraction. I've been diving as work for 10 years 5x/week.

The groups I'm most interested in collecting are:
Saturnids
Dynastids (I'd like to find a Chrysina)
Morphos
Cerambicids

If the permits were obtainable, are there any local collectors to buy from also?

[wingedwishes]

Jul 15, 2020 17:51:04 GMT -8 jshuey said:

when you say quantity - what groups are you talking about? Insects in general, or just butterflies? If it's just butterflies - then the Andes should be your target (from what others tell me - never been there personally). But if you are just general collecting, then anywhere with an easy permit system may work.

FYI - you will never get a permit for Columbia..., biut there is a guy in Peru that "guides" people for collecting (I assume with a permit), and I can tell you how to get a Belize permit fairly easily.

john

John, do you know a person in Belize who could: Guide us (for a fee) to collecting spots, show us where to stay, and may know locals I could buy insects from?

[jshuey]

The quick answer is nope! Really, no one in Belize swings a net anymore. Jan Meerman used to, but he photographs now.

But, you don't need no stinkin guides in Belize. All you really need is a 4-wheel drive rental, and a permit! The easiest way to get a permit now is through Pooks Hill Lodge - give them about 6 months lead time though. Once you have that permit, you can collect at Pooks Hill Lodge and on other private land. And the permit gets you through customs back into the states (assuming that you jump though all those hoops as well).Some other places to stay run MV lights for bugs as well, and are collector friendly (Hickatee Cottages comes to mind). But I'd bring my own light if I were you - they use the frosted MV lamps, that are really bright but attract a lot less than you would expect!

Belize is just in the process of re-opening to tourism right now. To enter the country, you have to have a negative Covid test within the last 72 hours, but you are only allowed to stay in accommodations that are "gold standard certified" to limit potential Covid spread. I'm not too sure what the gold standard is, but its more about practices - not like 5-star hotels. My guess is that almost all the decent accommodations will move to this standard, given that they are desperate for business.

If you are serious about this, let me know your preliminary itinerary and what you want to accomplish. I can point you towards areas that are right in the middle of it all (hickatee for example has trails and a long dirt road through secondary forest) and day trips that take you into new habitats. I always recommend 2 weeks, which will let you spend a few days at 3 to 4 nice spots (I bait trap a lot, and it takes a few days to get a solid sample). The rainy season used to start in May, but now late June to July, and runs through October - November. Late rainy season is best for skippers!! The beginning of rainy season is best for hairstreaks - but timing a trip for the beginning has become a total crap shoot lately. And as long as it is raining once every few nights, all the rest of the stuff will be pretty nice.

j

[wingedwishes]

Great to read! A lodge can serve as a guide to a degree. I'd just need places to permissibly collect. Is Pooks Hill Lodge on an area large enough to spend 10+ days? I think we would travel there based on recommendations. aka - wetter months. August or early September?

We - (Myself and daughter) are very serious about this. So here are questions and info to make planning easier:

1. All hoops and FWS jumps will be performed.
2. On leps - I am not specialized except maybe Hamadryas. Morphos to Heliconians in size. I always have difficulty pinning hairstreaks though my daughter does not.
3. On Coleoptera - Chrysina or Cerambycidae are favored but not limited to.
4. While I am an experienced reptile hunter with hot experience (venomous) I'm not going to do more than photograph them.
5. I will be heavily documenting collection data including GPS, time of day, photos, videos etc.
6. Might the lodge know locals who would sell specimens too?


Thanks for the intel!

[wingedwishes]

Hickatee website looks like what we want but do they allow collecting? Website states: We allow no logging, hunting, or fishing.... I know, I should ask them. The Fallen Stones butterfly farm associated with Hickatee makes me wonder if they could have dead stock.

[jshuey]

Back to the buy specimen thing - NOPE!!!! This just is not a thing in Belize like it is elsewhere. Jan and his spouse, Tineke, were the only two people in Belize I've ever heard of who collected bugs. But they could not control psocids, and the collection was eaten up, scale by scale. I salvaged some material, but in hindsight, wish I would have grabbed more. I also want to express my ignorance about the "tourist spots and hotels" of Belize. We usually stay in camps in protected areas or parks, so I have little experience with the Belize most people see. There are probably lots of really great places that work for collectors, but I'm just sort of ignorant about commercial spots....

There are at least two butterfly farms in Belize, and perhaps they can sell you bugs. One is associated with Hickatee and the other is Jan's old place - www.greenhillsbelize.com/contact/ (no accommodations here).

If you are doing a 10-15+ day trip, here is an menu for an itinerary that may work for you. (One thing to note, if you are bringing a light, many places will want to charge you extra to run it. BZ electricity is very expensive, and some of the places below are entirely off the grid - and a MV light may end up draining them entirely!).

Step 1 - Start at Pooks Hill, because they are going to get you your permit and it's also a nice place to collect (very collector friendly). (http://pookshilllodge.com/). Like I said - this will take around 6 months to get the permit and there will be a fee for getting it, plus the permit itself ($100us for the permit). Pook's Hill is surrounded by karst forest with lots of trails - but not very close to anything. You will have to eat there most likely.

Step 2 - go someplace else! Here are some sites I really like.

Head west to the very basic Trek Stop (https://www.facebook.com/TrekStopTropicalWings/). Trek stop is a very fun and cheap place to stay, with access to lots of second growth forest along trails and the dirt road to the west. Basically just cabins large enough for beds... outside kitchen, showers etc... You can cook for yourself, eat at their small place, or walk/drive out to town to eat. There are a couple of amazing Maya restaurants in San Jose Succutz. Trek Stop used to have a butterfly house, but I don't know now. You can walk to the ruins at Xunantunich (which are worth it), into town to eat and so on.

Not quite as far to the west, Sweet Songs is mid-range - near the Mopan River (https://sweetsongslodge.com/). You have access to the beach along the river (pulled 2 country records out of there last summer) and a long dirt road for collecting that comes into the site. They have a really nice place to eat on site, or you and drive into town. A friend specifically reserved an isolated cabin so that they could run a light a couple of years ago. (There are other, higher end places in the immediate vicinity).

Belize Zoo has cabins and "luxury tents" for rent in the savanna next to the zoo. First, the zoo is simply unique - all rescued animals, all native to Belize. And a very nice setting. You can collect discretely in the savanna and trails around the cabins, and you would be a bit surprised by what you find in this seemingly harsh habitat. But it is not nearly as rich as forest.

Step 3 - go south. First the Humming Bird HW is a wonderful drive - but watch out for the single lane bridges. There are lots of resorts that you can research on their own. I've only stayed at Ian Anderson's Cave Branch, and no, he is not that Ian Anderson (I asked him). These resorts are pretty developed, and I did not collect at Cave Branch - just too many people around... . But there are some lower end places that would probably be great.

You can keep on driving south - all he way to Hickatee if you want, or you can stay at many of the places along the southern HW. The only place I've stayed that you can collect at may be in Mayflower National Park, which has a private resort right in the middle (https://www.bocawina.com/). If you go during our summer, I bet you will be the only guests in the park and can collect - but I would check first. I was there as the park was being created, so it was not a problem back then. Again, there are other places located next to forest along the southern HW that would certainly work. Try Big Falls area - it always looked good as we drove by.

In the south, Hickatee is the only place near Punta Gorda I've stayed that I have ever taken my wife back to (all the others are basically just huts with lots of collecting opportunities inside the hut). But it is an ideal location, in forest that receives about twice as much rain as does the forest in central Belize. A short drive back into Punta Gorda, and you can dine at really great Garifuna places (lionfish is superb!). This is the real lowland forest - flat, muddy, wet and lush - and Hickatee is right in the middle. Yes, we have collected there on several occasions - just give Ian a heads up. They have about a mile of trail, but the last two times I was there it was so wet that I spent most of my time on roadsides, where bugs came out to warm up. The downside is that they are off the grid, and running a MV light after the generator is shut off is not an option, but if you have florescent or LED - that would probably work.

You can go north if you want, but northern Belize gets very dry, receiving only about 1/3rd the rain of southern Belize. Some really interesting bugs up there (you mentioned Hamadryas, and Hamadryas julitta sneaks into the very northern part of the country) but diversity goes down as you head north in Belize. The Copper Bank Inn (https://corozal.bz/276) is as good as it gets up there. I'm willing to bet that you will be the only people staying there, and you can walk south through some great scrub-forest habitats. I've never run a light there, but the back of the place faces scrub forest. Otherwise, there is nothing to do there. I have no friggin idea why someone thought building this pretty nice hotel was a good idea...

If you go out to the Cayes, there are places on North Ambergris that are fairly isolated and with adjacent forest you can collect in. We booked a room at Sapphire Beach Resort though airbnb but there were a zillion choices... All these places can get you out on the reef for a day of diving. Mosquitos are hell in the forests.


I'm sure there are many other places. Just use Google Earth to see what they are surrounded by, and if there is adjacent forest - you are probably good to go. Collecting in Belize - no one is going to give you crap unless you are in a protected area and they are a ranger or you are in someone's front yard. You have to have bait traps, and you have to stay at each place long enough to let them work - 2-3 days. I take 4 traps minimum - but honestly, the more the better. Every trap gets something different over a few days. By the way, your permit should be good for 12 months. Plan a second trip!


Hope this helps,
John

[wingedwishes]

High praise to John!

This is what we needed! So Pooks Hill will be contacted next week by me.
I will contact some of the others as well as ask butterfly farms to save their dead if possible.
As long as the collecting is good, I will continue to collect in Pooks Hill. Then, move on.

As long as you have been so gracious in answering questions....I have 3 more:

1. Bringing a light from the USA seems delicate. Are there places there who sell or rent them?
2. If I wanted top use GoogleMaps to get around, how is cell phone reception in the cities?
3. My biggest nets have 8' handles. I know there are longer ones for higher 'canopy' reach (20'). What nets do you use?
ok 4...or 5
4. I've used this bait - Molasses, brown sugar, rum, and rotting bananas. What do you think?
5. Pitfall traps for beetles.....Ever used them?

Many thanks!
Tyson

[exoticimports]

It was long ago, but I stayed at Lamanai Outpost Lodge on the New River Lagoon. Very cool place; caiman all over, fresh water tarpon, tarantulas. I can't say I got any insects that were extremely rare, but did catch some great material in the area. lamanai.com/

Yeah, bring your own MV and a spare. My trips to Ecuador and Solomon Islands I also took a generator- in my luggage! If you can find a helpful local whom you're staying with see if they can arrange a generator rental ahead of time. This may be important, because 80% of the material you bring back will probably come from MV. If you're in the tropics in the right place and right time, it isn't like sitting drinking beer waiting for Catocala to show up.

Chuck

[jshuey]

Quick answers


1. Bringing a light from the USA seems delicate. Are there places there who sell or rent them?

Bring your "proven" light with you... You will want to make sure that you have one that is really attractive to insects. Hickatee runs a light until they turn the generator off, and it is pretty pathetic what it draws in. You want something that you know will attract insects. And a light extension chord and everything else you need. When I used to do this, I usually had 50' to get me from the outlet to somewhere the bugs would not cause problems for other guests. Most places will have power for you to plug into. A few are off the grid. Make sure you understand this if it is important before you book places to stay.

2. If I wanted top use GoogleMaps to get around, how is cell phone reception in the cities?

Ha - you make me laugh a little!! Here is what works - usually. Almost everywhere you stay will have wifi. Download the maps at your hotel, plot your destination and then leave the app on. Then with your GPS on, you should be able to plot your course on the map. But don't even think you are going to download any data while you are in the car. The reality of driving around in Belize, is that there are really just 4 main High ways, and everything is fairly well marked off of those. Towns are so small, you really can't get that lost.

And don't drive in Belize City unless you have really figured out the Google Maps thing. It's really a smallish town, but crazy streets that seem to go nowhere, cut by canals and rivers. It can indeed be confusing. So, if you are in the city for some crazy reason - take a cab.

3. My biggest nets have 8' handles. I know there are longer ones for higher 'canopy' reach (20'). What nets do you use?

I use BioQuips tropics nets which I think gives me about 20' of reach (with me being about 6' of that). They extend quickly and lock fairly well into place. I use the big collapsible net ring that BioQuip sells, with their really light delicate net on it. (take a couple extra bags if you go this route - they work well on the extended net, but they tear pretty easily. The real problem with these handles is that they do not last very long - 2-3 hard trips. For the price - you would hope for better.

ok 4...or 5
4. I've used this bait - Molasses, brown sugar, rum, and rotting bananas. What do you think?

Simple bait in the tropics works best. I take a pack of baker's yeast with me, and of course a container to make the bait in. From the airport, I drive south into the edges of Belize City and hit Brodies store. I buy a pound or two of lightly refined sugar (Cane sugar), some normal ripe bananas and over ripe platanos (black skins). Slice the bananas and platanos in the parking lot (leave the skin on), cover with water, add a cup of sugar and the yeast, shake it and seal it up. You will have attractive bait the next day. Even better the second day. Buy enough extra fruit and sugar to allow you to keep adding to your mixture as you place it in the traps. And don't be afraid to keep it really wet in the traps - you need fermentation and the heat of the day will dry it out. Or a storm overflows everything and flushes it out, Either way, add more sugar water and fruit to the traps daily as needed. You want it to be actively fermenting in the field.

Brodies is like the walmart of Belize, only with high prices and only 2 locations. What they do have is selection, and just about anything you need can be found there.

5. Pitfall traps for beetles.....Ever used them?

Yes-ish. A guy I travel with regularly does, and I help him set them up now and then. He sets them up in threes and lets them run for as long as possible. Uses your dung+maltose and water, rotting mushrooms in water and carrion in water as bait (he is after hister beetles, but most of the catch is other things). You will not find malt sugar in Belize - you will have to bring it with you. And he often carried pre-dried button mushrooms with him, to re-hydrate in the field. We would by fish or cow organs at Brodies for the carrion. He used traps everywhere, but we always tried to set at least two sets on the first day or so, that we picked back up as we were leaving the country. Typically, dung and carrion produced several hundred dead bugs after a week or so in each trap (the rotting mushrooms was more selective and not as generally attractive). He always used propylene glycol as the preservative for those longer runs - so that if jaguars drank it, we would not kill them. You can probably get by with brine for shorter time periods - and buy salt at Brodies. But your traps are going to need rain-roofs that are secured with wire mesh to keep animals out of your bait. We stored the captured material in WhirlPacs with rubbing alcohol for the trip home, and then he sorts through it later. Somewhere in the forum, are photos of his system that I posted a few years back - search for pit fall traps..

God luck,
john

[jshuey]

One thing I did not mention on the itinerary, is you can go up to the Maya Mountains - but places are very expensive up there. Francis Ford Copula has a place up there if you are willing to shell out the $$. All the places are in the oak pine habitats, but as you drive north to Caracol Ruins, you will cross the river and immediately you are in rainforest (limestone versus granite). Right at the bridge can be wonderful, as the Belize Defense Force trains there and have a system of trails that are great collecting. And the road to the ruins run through miles and miles of forest. This is the Vaca Plateau, and the altitude is just high enough that you get bugs that don't show up elsewhere in Belize (~700m). Anyplace along he road, where you see trails cut into the forest, those are great. And the ruins are worth seeing - the largest in Belize. But it's at least an hour and a half to get there from accommodations.

There is a nice place at Rio Fio Cave, not far from the resorts, that is on limestone as well. Again, the change from pine to rainforest happens as just a crease - one minute it's hot and dry, the next you are in rain forest. Just 30 minutes or so from most of the accommodations.

The oak pine is ok collecting, especially along the riparian areas next to rivers. Lots of rainforest species follow these paths into the mountains, but you see the bugs at much lower densities And if you can find nectar - usually isolated trees - you find really interesting hairstreaks and skippers. But if you are after quantity - probably not what you are looking for. The flip side, is that a MV light would do great up here - especially for sphingids and beetles - if you had a place that was a great set-up.

Can you tell COVID is killing me? We had a trip to either Guatemala or the DR planned for June. That didn't happen. Maybe, we'll go someplace in early summer if things cool down or there is a real vaccine. I need the tropics!

John

[wollastoni]

French Guyana is a must because you are in the Amazon forest without the issues of some very poor countries (bribery, violence...).

Visit the website of InsectNet sponsor : Amazone Nature Lodge for more details : www.amazonenature.com/

And if you like Morpho and Saturniids, it is a must !

[wingedwishes]

French Guyana and amazone were a probable but for the limits of 1000 specimens. Pooks Hill emailed me and told me there might be difficulty with a commercial permit. They are looking into it.

[exoticimports]

Oct 26, 2020 18:13:21 GMT -8 wingedwishes said:

French Guyana and amazone were a probable but for the limits of 1000 specimens. Pooks Hill emailed me and told me there might be difficulty with a commercial permit. They are looking into it.

Start asking for a museum or institution affiliation?

I don't believe any such thing is available from LepSoc. Noting the contribution of advanced students of entomology who are not career entomologists, I've wondered if we should not start an organization for the advancement of entomology that does offer affiliations, letters of reference, templates for research requests, etc.

Beyond that, there are a number of online entities that publish scientific papers, often to the chagrin of established hardcopy publishers; last I knew the latter did not want to recognize research (e.g., newly described species) that were published online (e.g., Zootaxa). I wonder if this has changed.

Chuck

[Paul K]

Why commercial permit? As we are not professional entomologist can’t we apply for scientific permit?

[nomihoudai]

You are always free to apply for a scientific permit when you

a) Leave the specimen in an institution and don't keep them at home.

b) Write and publish a paper to report your findings.

I guess commercial permit it is then.

[exoticimports]

Oct 27, 2020 4:22:21 GMT -8 Paul K said:

Why commercial permit? As we are not professional entomologist can’t we apply for scientific permit?

There are a variety of reasons why one would get a commercial permit, and I suppose anyone can apply for anything.

I don't recall who in Belize Govt issued my research permit, but anyway it was a long time ago and has probably changed.


Depending on your country of residence, you may or may not be able to sell the specimens imported with a research permit. This is important from a socio-economic perspective when poor villagers approach you wanting to sell specimens- that money can mean a lot to them.

In one country I conducted research the commercial permit was issued by Dept. of Natural Resources (with which I worked) and the research permit was issued by Dept. of Education (and everyone in the chain of command didn't give a damn about research, they only wanted bribe money.)

In some cases, the issuing government is more fond of "commercial" permitees, since the research world has a documented habit of recording far more than [butterflies, etc.] and creating havoc. One researcher I know exposed a big scandal, and (surprise, dumbass) spent 30 days in self-confinement while the wholesale ripoff was completed; when it was done a judge fined him under US$100 and told him to get out of the country. Of course, in India, Brazil, Turkey and other countries they prefer NOBODY go snooping around; applicants are well researched and if there is anything found that they've made noise in the past, no permit.


Bureaucracy is about control, and few bureaucrats simply issue permits for the good of ecology. "I'm with [Nature Conservancy/ Shell Oil/ BMNH]" screams money; "I'm Paul and I like butterflies" does not. That said, it is presumed that professionals have the experience to keep themselves alive and out of trouble, whereas "Joe Average" (I can tell you) is VERY likely to do something stupid and get damaged, make a horrifying cultural error, or run out of money.

In any event, first-time research in a developing country will bring unexpected surprises. It is not for those who need comfort, can't think fast, can't talk their way out of trouble, are not well versed in critical first aid, are out of shape, etc.

Chuck

[Adam Cotton]

Oct 27, 2020 4:05:10 GMT -8 exoticimports said:

Beyond that, there are a number of online entities that publish scientific papers, often to the chagrin of established hardcopy publishers; last I knew the latter did not want to recognize research (e.g., newly described species) that were published online (e.g., Zootaxa). I wonder if this has changed.

Chuck

Zootaxa papers are available online, but they also provide printed copies to a specified number of libraries to comply with the ICZN Code requirements for publications. Many online only journals also completely comply with the 2012 amendment to the ICZN Code, so that even though they only publish electronically without any paper copies they are also Code compliant and all nomentlatural acts in their papers are validly published.

No-one can unilaterally refuse to accept publications which comply with the ICZN Code, whether in paper or electronic form.

Adam.