seller responsibility and the buyer

[kevinkk]

I just wrote a lengthy and detailed post about the above topic, went to submit it, and the computer had kicked me off.

I'm nauseous now.

Some of you have seen my recent "bad trade with buyer posts" I'd like to hear from other breeders- not buyers, about who is responsible for

what, and why.

Discuss here in the forum, or email me   [e-mail]

Ok,I took a break and am ready to get out my soap box.

First- my opinion about my responsibility- I am responsible to send viable ova, and I do that by only sending ova from witnessed pairings, or wild caught

females. I am responsible for sending live pupa or cocoons, I do that by looking at them and weighing them.

I am responsible for posting to the correct address, or at least the one given.

That's it. Once I take the package to the post office, I leave without it, and have no further control. I send ova that are collected daily, placed in a dated

container and sent in flat rate priority boxes. The pupa I ship are hardened and ready for winter, or at least a short diapause.

I've recently had people claim that I am responsible for moths not hatching , or the post office taking 7 days to go from Oregon to California.

This is a hobby, and we are shipping living organisms, and living things are unpredictable. I don't feel I have to assume all the risk for every thing I send

out, if the parcel is lost- blame the post office, not me, if the moths fail to hatch, blame nature, not me, or the way they were cared for while not in my

custody. Apparently, some buyers, and a few sellers, want to emulate the 100% guarantee they get form Ebay, or Amazon, well, then please don't

buy my livestock, because, after my ethical responsibility I already outlined is fulfilled, the buyer is going to have to assume some risk.

I take losses all the time for all kinds of reasons, and don't whine and complain about it.

I just got a lecture from someone who thinks I should eat every postal issue, or every infertile egg that pops up invariably, 100% hatch rates are not

always the norm. Well, I'm interested in hearing from breeders, not buyers about these issues. I don't make a living doing this, and look at my offerings

almost as a favor to the hobby, a way to spread around my good fortune, or contacts that someone else doesn't have, bottom line, for me, if I have to

guarantee every single thing will be perfect, I'll sell deadstock, or to people I already know, or make people print and sign a waiver. This is free trade between

individuals, and I don't force anyone to buy anything, and in fact, go into detail often relating my experiences with particular species, giving people the most

information I can so they can make a comfortable decision, recently a buyer changed their mind, because after emailing, decided they weren't sure about

having the right food plant. Super! That's what I am here for, to share my experience, and knowledge. After over 20 years being self employed as a contractor,

I've learned all about the public  and how not everyone is reasonable.

Email me, or discuss it here, I'd love to hear why I'm right, and only mildly interested in why I'm wrong.. but I'll talk to you about it.

[exoticimports]

Easy. ExWorks, no warranty. Put that in your ad. It says what you wrote about in legal commerce terms.

Chuck

[kevinkk]

Hi Chuck,

thank you for commenting on this subject.

I plan to, and if I end up looking like a big meanie, it's too bad. Most of the response from my bad trade postings was positive. I got one lecture, by a deluded

person, and a direct contradiction in shipping policy by David Thompson, who's been offering butterfly ova, and, I bought ova from Dave before this

controversy began.

If someone can come up with a reasonable argument about how I am responsible for what the post office does, I'd like to hear it- just today I received a

letter from France, mailed 0n 5-23, the material inside was useless. Now, who's fault was that? A properly addressed envelope sent in "good faith" by an honest person, well, I paid for something in "good faith", but I don't see how I can blame a seller for the post office's failing.

Then there was the cocoons that didn't hatch- 6 months after I had sent the guy live material, I get blamed for that.

I can tell you, I will be telling others, in my future listings, exactly where my responsibility begins and ends, and if people don't like it- well, no one is forcing

them to buy anything, most of us do this as a hobby, and I don't think very many make an actual profit doing this.

I think simply by stating policy, and using a more reliable shipping method- the flat rate priority box, this issue will end, people don't seem to understand what we are

actually doing, most of us know the requirements for trade in live material, and the risks involved. Insect net is not Amazon, or Ebay, it's fair trade between

persons, and 99% of my activity as a buyer, and a seller is positive, does every egg hatch? No, sometimes, it happens. Does every moth survive the winter and hatch?

A few unrealistic buyers, and snappy sellers throw a real bummer wrench into the works.

I wish more people would give feedback, at least in private about transactions, I do, I let sellers know how it went, I get and give refunds if a mistake has been made,

not for the unpredictably of natural systems.

Thank again, and good luck in your efforts. If they're like mine, it can be a lot of work.

[exoticimports]

Ebay and Amazon have created an atmosphere of beating sellers, where the buyer is always right.

It is part of the societal decay, all about me, I want it now, I'm always right. If I want something, I buy it on Amazon, get it two days later, and if I don't like it, I return it for free...or else.

This perversion of responsibility is systemic in the younger generation. If you don't FEEL satisfied, complain on FaceBook, stop traffic, resort to violent conflict. Me, me, me.

All of this has a cost. To sellers, the cost has to be absorbed. If it cannot reasonably be absorbed, the venture fails. Ultimately, low volume, low cost product will disappear. The potential buyers will suffer, but they are too short sighted to realize that.

As a seller, you need a thick skin. Stand up for yourself, while developing a good reputation and clientele. Then you can say "no" to bad buyers.

Chuck

[Paul K]

In Thailand is a total opposite. The sellers are always right.
You bought it you keep it, no exchange or refund almost everywhere.
Before you buy you must think twice, no trying system there.
The bad think though coz if something is defected it is very difficult to exchange, seller is always right.

[joachim]

Haha, I once sent a package when there were some accidents on the highway. DHl claims up ti 3 or 4 days if not sent by express. As the package didnßt arrive the next day, the buyer went to the police and claimed I have to be put into prison.
The police told them to wait some days. Anyway, the next day they called me and apoligized. But, you see people are very strange sometimes and do not know how the world is going. The resposibility for a package is here for the buyer, so if a package is lost, he in unlucky ( unlucky is a english word ?)
So for a litte more money, you get tracking data.
But, if larvae are hatching because the package is kept warm some where at dhl or ups, you as a sender can only see how much time they need. But, nature is sometimes moody.

[wingedwishes]

I use Ebay some to sell insects. That said, I sell much more at a local farm and art market. I much enjoy speaking with my customers. This is the failing of Ebay. Little interaction. My customers enjoy talking with me for hours each Saturday. I learn from them and they from me. I do make a living selling insects and fossils/minerals I collect and prepare. I must be a relic from the old guard of collectors.

Ty

[kevinkk]

I'm glad to see people commenting on this subject.

Firstly, the Thai system- certainly a clear set of expectations, but, in reality, even I think the seller may be wrong sometimes.

Secondly- DHL? Are you sure? The only delivery service worse is FedX smartpost.

Accidents do happen, and jumping to conclusions on any side isn't a good idea, and I had some issues as a buyer when I first started

trading, mostly from lack of communication after I'd sent my money, and, after a time, I learned patience, and to pay with paypal

goods and services when I  traded with a new person. Not everyone is completely obsessive compulsive and sends things out the same day...or returns

email.

Third- I sell on Ebay often, I think I reach a market that either doesn't know about Insectnet, or had a bad experience there. I agree a lot of

buyers on Ebay don't communicate, however I seem to get a lot of people new to the hobby and get a lot of questions, and communication,

I answer them all, and, there are no dumb questions, just dumb answers, I get asked really basic stuff, but I think people rely on the experience

of a seller, I ask questions of my sellers often, after all, it's usually a new species, and I assume the seller has some experience with it.

I want to be nice to my buyers, and it's usually reciprocated, just like in the "real" work world, things come up, I had a bad time with my last two

listings- hyles lineata, I'd never sold sphinx ova before, many hatched in the post, and the fertility rate dropped, I gave a lot of refunds, rothschildia cincta,

33% hatching at best, I still owe one buyer some trade, and nearly everyone was understanding both times, and, it's all just more experience, a couple people

got their emails permanently blocked, and I made some new contacts that made it to the little black bug book.

A book with over 3 dozen reliable people, and growing.

Another completely different season to build on.