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Post by Goliathus on Feb 9, 2019 15:05:08 GMT -8
Hello -
A question regarding Ornithoptera:
I've essentially been "out of the loop" on butterfly collecting / regulations for quite some time (around 35 years, in fact), and just wanted to clarify that I understand the CITES aspect correctly. Permits are only needed when importing Ornithoptera spp., correct? I am in the US, and if I were to purchase some CITES II-listed specimens from someone in the US who had legally imported them, CITES documentation does not need to accompany the specimens that are passed on to me, even if I eventually sell them to someone else (in the US), correct? Even if that IS the case, I assume it would probably still be preferable to have the CITES documentation on them, anyway?
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Post by Paul K on Feb 9, 2019 15:57:00 GMT -8
Hello - A question regarding Ornithoptera: I've essentially been "out of the loop" on butterfly collecting / regulations for quite some time (around 35 years, in fact), and just wanted to clarify that I understand the CITES aspect correctly. Permits are only needed when importing Ornithoptera spp., correct? I am in the US, and if I were to purchase some CITES II-listed specimens from someone in the US who had legally imported them, CITES documentation does not need to accompany the specimens that are passed on to me, even if I eventually sell them to someone else (in the US), correct? Even if that IS the case, I assume it would probably still be preferable to have the CITES documentation on them, anyway? CITES permits are only for international trade, within the country you don’t need it and technically if the specimen was imported illigal and pass the customs no one will ever be able to check if specimen was legally imported or not. There is no stamp on actual specimen. |
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Post by billgarthe on Feb 9, 2019 21:25:57 GMT -8
Yes....you can purchase from within the US wo a permit, but I’d advise you keep your receipt of the sale anyway. In your post, there was the comment abt only needing a permit for importing Ornithoptera. You need a CITES II permit and a 3-177 for importing Ornithoptera and just a 3-177 for any other dead insects. I took your comment to only mean abt importing Ornithoptera which is true, but importing any dead insect into the US does require paperwork.....sadly. Just wanted to share my thoughts. Btw....it’s not unreasonable to ask for CITES importing documentation from the seller if that seller imported the specimens. This whole thing is a royal pita and why I only buy from within the US these days.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 9, 2019 22:17:50 GMT -8
You also need a CITES permit to import any other CITES appendix II listed species such as Bhutanitis, Teinopalpus, Troides and Trogonoptera (and others), not just Ornithoptera.
I would certainly recommend buying from REPUTABLE dealers inside the US rather than trying to import them yourself.
Adam.
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Post by billgarthe on Feb 10, 2019 6:06:28 GMT -8
Good catch Adam.....thnx. Yes, I focused on his Ornithoptera which was mentioned, but all CITES II insects need the permit along w the 3-177.
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 10, 2019 10:01:56 GMT -8
Yes....you can purchase from within the US wo a permit, but I’d advise you keep your receipt of the sale anyway.
...Btw....it’s not unreasonable to ask for CITES importing documentation from the seller if that seller imported the specimens. This whole thing is a royal pita and why I only buy from within the US these days.
Many thanks to all for your comments - will do.
...but importing any dead insect into the US does require paperwork.....sadly.
Really? I know US collectors who have purchased (non-CITES) insect specimens (either single specimens, or small quantities) many times from foreign dealers throughout the world, with the customs declarations clearly labeled as "dead, preserved insect specimens" and they have always come through without any issues at all.
You also need a CITES permit to import any other CITES appendix II listed species such as Bhutanitis, Teinopalpus, Troides and Trogonoptera (and others), not just Ornithoptera.
Yes, but incidentally, I was inquiring about Ornithoptera spp. specifically, and the CITES details regarding the purchase of specimens of this genus from dealers within the US. I have no plans to personally import any Ornithoptera species. Most of the species that I would be interested in are common ones that are readily available from domestic sources, anyway.
I would certainly recommend buying from REPUTABLE dealers inside the US rather than trying to import them yourself.
Will do. Are there any US dealers that you can recommend?
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Post by billgarthe on Feb 10, 2019 12:18:41 GMT -8
Yes....you can purchase from within the US wo a permit, but I’d advise you keep your receipt of the sale anyway.
...Btw....it’s not unreasonable to ask for CITES importing documentation from the seller if that seller imported the specimens. This whole thing is a royal pita and why I only buy from within the US these days.
Many thanks to all for your comments - will do....but importing any dead insect into the US does require paperwork.....sadly.Really? I know US collectors who have purchased (non-CITES) insect specimens (either single specimens, or small quantities) many times from foreign dealers throughout the world, with the customs declarations clearly labeled as "dead, preserved insect specimens" and they have always come through without any issues at all.You also need a CITES permit to import any other CITES appendix II listed species such as Bhutanitis, Teinopalpus, Troides and Trogonoptera (and others), not just Ornithoptera.
Yes, but incidentally, I was inquiring about Ornithoptera spp. specifically, and the CITES details regarding the purchase of specimens of this genus from dealers within the US. I have no plans to personally import any Ornithoptera species. Most of the species that I would be interested in are common ones that are readily available from domestic sources, anyway.I would certainly recommend buying from REPUTABLE dealers inside the US rather than trying to import them yourself.
Will do. Are there any US dealers that you can recommend? That’s great if your buddies got them through wo incident. That is not to say it was legal or without potential problems. Many many insects get through wo USFW......it’s just a matter of time before some get caught. Every single dead bug imported into the US must be done up w a 3-177. Now....some nice (few though there may be) agents/ports will let one import wo a license if the importer only does a few....less than eight. If, by chance, you order a small series of the same species, they will most certainly force you to get a commercial license for $100 per year. Whether you import as a private collector (8 or fewer) or you import as a commercial licensee, the form is required....plain and simple. Go ahead and call several agents/ports and ask for yourself. I doubt they’ve relaxed the rules since I did it, but miracles do happen......don’t hold your breath. I used to call several with questions and I’d keep detailed records of what was said and by whom. Once I called abt Ornithoptera from the Solomons and they actually were unaware of the fact that there was a block on importations from there bc the Solomons had not signed the CITES agreement. Even so....the importer is required to know the rules even if the goons don’t or face confiscation and/or fines. Now....what you choose to do is your business. I’m just trying to share what I know so as to not have you get into trouble......that’s all. Although I’ve stopped importing, I used to do it quite heavily when they were less Gastapo-like. Good luck. |
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 11, 2019 9:34:33 GMT -8
Many thanks for all of the above information.
As mentioned earlier, I have no plans to import - just deal with US sources only. My collecting goals are somewhat specific and rather limited, and I don't expect that purchasing from international dealers will even be necessary to find what I am looking for. If there are any reputable US dealers that you can recommend, please let me know.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 11, 2019 11:20:40 GMT -8
I am not in the US, so cannot recommend particular sellers myself, but I expect that the sponsors of Insectnet would be a good place to start. Try this link insectnet.com/suppliers.htmAdam. |
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 13, 2019 9:28:28 GMT -8
Thanks again - will check out that link.
I'm really just looking for a few commonly available species of Ornithoptera, such as croesus, goliath, priamus, etc. - I should be able to easily get those from domestic sources. O. victoriae is also of interest, but from what I've heard, one (or more) of the victoriae subspecies are no longer legal to export from their regions of origin (Solomon Islands?), correct?
These days, are most (if not virtually all) of the Ornithoptera being marketed ex-pupae (farmed) specimens?
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Post by billgarthe on Feb 13, 2019 9:40:06 GMT -8
Yes.......farmed they are these days. Best bet to get O. victoriae from within the USA is to purchase from an old collection. It is my understanding from recent years past that the Solomons are off limits for importation. I have not, admittedly, recently checked on this.
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Post by mothman27 on Feb 13, 2019 11:31:40 GMT -8
www.ebay.com/usr/chevynut999I am thinking of buying some from this seller. Looks like nice specimens and pretty good prices. They've got priamus urvillianus, priamus teucrus, priamus arruana, priamus priamus, priamus poseidon, goliath procus. Also previously had rothschildi, croesus lydius, goliath samson and victoriae.
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 13, 2019 13:59:14 GMT -8
www.ebay.com/usr/chevynut999I am thinking of buying some from this seller. Looks like nice specimens and pretty good prices. They've got priamus urvillianus, priamus teucrus, priamus arruana, priamus priamus, priamus poseidon, goliath procus. Also previously had rothschildi, croesus lydius, goliath samson and victoriae. Well, their feedback profile is certainly good, and they've been an eBay member since 2001. Apart from eBay however, I can't find even a single reference to this seller anywhere on the web. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. |
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 13, 2019 18:40:42 GMT -8
Yes.......farmed they are these days. Best bet to get O. victoriae from within the USA is to purchase from an old collection. It is my understanding from recent years past that the Solomons are off limits for importation. I have not, admittedly, recently checked on this. But victoriae is still being legally imported from Papua, as well as Bougainville Island, true? If that is so, then not all of the victoriae specimens that are currently being offered are old stock obtained prior to the Solomon Islands import prohibition? |
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Post by billgarthe on Feb 14, 2019 6:48:02 GMT -8
Yes.....victoriae from Papua are fine, just not the Solomons.
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Post by exoticimports on Feb 14, 2019 7:33:16 GMT -8
As I have well documented here in another thread, Ornithoptera from Solomon Islands was banned in trade as a result of a bureaucratic pissing contest between CITES and Solomon Islands National Resources. As a signatory to CITES, US law (frighteningly) adopts as US law any rulings by CITES. As a result of this, it was published in Federal Register that import of Ornithoptera from Solomons was illegal. You can search for the document, it is available online. Solomon Islands became a signatory to CITES years ago. The ban on Ornithoptera should have been lifted. However, nobody at CITES bothered to follow through with the correction, nor did anyone at USFWS nor any US legislators. So it stands, simply because of laziness. If you want to be a hero, write your legislator and ask them to remove the restriction. This should be a no-brainer for the politicians since nobody is going to fight it. When passed as law you can then import SolIs Ornithoptera legally. If you want O. victoriae today, here you go, great price, two different available: www.thebutterflycompany.com/product-category/collector-roomChuck |
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 14, 2019 9:14:25 GMT -8
If you want O. victoriae today, here you go, great price, two different available: www.thebutterflycompany.com/product-category/collector-room
Thanks for the link. I've purchased from that company before (back when it was called Butterflies and Things). Those male victoriae specimens are nice, but I'd prefer to get a pair, if possible.
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 14, 2019 21:46:32 GMT -8
Thanks again to everyone for your comments and advice on Birdwing butterflies - very informative. I feel like I have a much better understanding of the current regulations surrounding them now. As I am in the US and have no plans to obtain any specimens of such from international sources, the main question that I wanted to confirm is whether Ornithoptera, Triodes & Trogonoptera species can be freely sold and purchased WITHIN the US (with O. alexandrae being the sole exception of course, as uniquely, it is listed under CITES I rather than CITES II). I wanted to make quite certain that this is indeed totally legal before making any transactions, and your input on this matter has been very helpful. Incidentally, I have just ordered Hirotaka Matsuka's book "Natural History of Birdwing Butterflies", which was recommended as a highly comprehensive work on the subject, and I much look forward to reading. |
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 15, 2019 1:38:25 GMT -8
Matsuka's book really is excellent, you will enjoy reading it for sure and seeing all the photos.
Adam.
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 15, 2019 15:06:03 GMT -8
As I have well documented here in another thread, Ornithoptera from Solomon Islands was banned in trade as a result of a bureaucratic pissing contest between CITES and Solomon Islands National Resources.
As a signatory to CITES, US law (frighteningly) adopts as US law any rulings by CITES. As a result of this, it was published in Federal Register that import of Ornithoptera from Solomons was illegal. You can search for the document, it is available online.
Solomon Islands became a signatory to CITES years ago. The ban on Ornithoptera should have been lifted. However, nobody at CITES bothered to follow through with the correction, nor did anyone at USFWS nor any US legislators. So it stands, simply because of laziness.
..
There are plenty of O. priamus urvillianus from the Solomons listed on eBay right now, many of which are from this dealer. Are those legal? I know that this subspecies is also found in Papua, but many of the listings state "Solomon Islands" as the specimens' place of origin.
A thought: What if by Solomons, they are actually referring to Bougainville Island (where urvillianus also occurs)? Geographically, Bougainville is part of the Solomons, but politically, it's part of Papua.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 16, 2019 0:25:11 GMT -8
They are legal IF the seller has a CITES export permit from the country that he bought them from (doubtful). If someone in another country buys them from him on eBay they would only be legal if he provides a Russian CITES export permit for the specimens. He may be able to provide Russian CITES permits, possibly at extra cost, but I suspect that he may not.
Adam.
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 16, 2019 9:14:59 GMT -8
They are legal IF the seller has a CITES export permit from the country that he bought them from (doubtful). If someone in another country buys them from him on eBay they would only be legal if he provides a Russian CITES export permit for the specimens. He may be able to provide Russian CITES permits, possibly at extra cost, but I suspect that he may not. Adam. I see. In any case, I'd rather just avoid any possible CITES technicalities whatsoever, and will therefore only buy specimens from sellers within the US, as I'm not willing to risk having any legal issues arise from importing. As others have advised me, purchasing from domestic sources is the least complicated route of building a collection of Ornithoptera. I'm by no means seeking to assemble a diverse collection, anyway - just single pairs of a number of species / subspecies, and mostly the more common and affordable ones. My real question, is whether it would be legal to purchase (from domestic sellers) specimens that originated from the Solomons (regardless of whether they were imported prior to, or after, the Solomons import ban)? In other words, in such a scenario, could the buyer be held legally responsible in any way, or is it only the seller that took a risk, since they were the importer? What if the seller didn't import the specimens directly from the Solomons, but instead got them from another dealer (e.g. - in Europe or Asia)? Apologies for all of the technical questions I've posed in this thread, but I need any transactions I make to be legally "bulletproof". |
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Post by billgarthe on Feb 16, 2019 10:09:24 GMT -8
It’s the importer/seller who has to face the regulation issues. Buying from within is perfectly ok, but I’d still keep receipts just in case. The worse thing that could happen is your specimens might (and I doubt it would likely happen) be confiscated wo penalty to you. It’s the importers into the US they r being a pain to. It’s not your fault if what u buy had been wrongfully brought into the US. Buy away from within the US.  |
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Post by Goliathus on Feb 16, 2019 10:35:38 GMT -8
It’s the importer/seller who has to face the regulation issues. Buying from within is perfectly ok, but I’d still keep receipts just in case. The worse thing that could happen is your specimens might (and I doubt it would likely happen) be confiscated wo penalty to you. It’s the importers into the US they r being a pain to. It’s not your fault if what u buy had been wrongfully brought into the US. Buy away from within the US. At what point would could a confiscation take place, since the specimens wouldn't be going through customs in the case of domestic shipping? Again - I should clarify that I'm not seeking to purchase anything prohibited by somehow finding a legal workaround. I just want to make certain that for any CITES II material that I do happen to buy from a US seller, that might "possibly" have been brought into the country wrongfully, I can't be held legally liable for in any way whatsoever. I've seen some Solomon Islands specimens available on-line that, while probably (hopefully) imported legally, seem a bit vague on that aspect. |
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Post by billgarthe on Feb 16, 2019 12:44:05 GMT -8
I know of several cases years ago where the goons raided (usually after an importation violation) properties. It’s not likely to ever happen to a non importer, but it can. If they even suspect one has done wrong, they’ll serve a search warrant and proceed from there. Always plan for the worst. Btw......giving them your records is not a good idea as when they “lose” your proof, you are up a creek wo a paddle. If I ever get visited, I’ll inform them that my lawyer will bring the proof directly to the court. None of this lost it crap. Don’t worry, but be prepared.....that’s all. I still have my paperwork from importing years ago....just to be safe. Sorry situation we law abiding citizen collectors find ourselves in  |
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