|
|
Post by papiliotheona on Jan 1, 2019 12:08:56 GMT -8
I have heard from past discussions on this forum that collecting as such in Cambodia is not terribly restricted; however, for the "desirables" such as Teinopalpus, etc. you are still out of luck in terms of exporting, as the government will only issue CITES paperwork to qualified researchers/officials/biological enterprises. (I guess it's that way all over; I guess CITES permits aren't supposed to be issued to civilians.)
If that has changed, let me know.
|
|
|
|
Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 1, 2019 12:32:03 GMT -8
I suspect that there are no Teinopalpus in Cambodia. The only CITES listed species there should be Troides aeacus and helena.
Adam.
|
|
|
|
Post by bartcoppens on Jan 1, 2019 16:11:18 GMT -8
I have heard from past discussions on this forum that collecting as such in Cambodia is not terribly restricted; however, for the "desirables" such as Teinopalpus, etc. you are still out of luck in terms of exporting, as the government will only issue CITES paperwork to qualified researchers/officials/biological enterprises. (I guess it's that way all over; I guess CITES permits aren't supposed to be issued to civilians.) If that has changed, let me know. I will focus on moths anyways, while there are many desirable and valuable butterflies out there, I think most of them are well researched and collecting them is not of much benefit - moths however, are largely undocumented from what it seems, especially in Cambodia  most of the operations will be light trapping |
|
|
|
Post by bartcoppens on Jan 1, 2019 16:12:19 GMT -8
I just heard I will be moth trapping in the Cardamon mountains (South Cambodia), Luang Prabang (Laos), and several other very unique high elevation locations too. New species for Cambodia may turn up. All the neighbouring countries such as Vietnam, Laos and Thailand count 35 to 50 species of Saturniidae. And Cambodia about 16 as far as I know. I do not believe it. It must be a lack of observation. Unless that many species obey the border from all sides. And thank you Mr. Nabokov for your awesome and elaborate post. From my background research modern day Cambodia is very safe but still has the same problems associated with rich tourists in relatively poor countries. But most tourist attacks appear to be "just" theft, so I guess it is still a cut above countries where they will just murder you instead of rob you  Besides that, landmines, venomous snakes and malaria I should be okay I hope  You could contact Santi Collard (on Facebook) about collecting in Luang Prabang, Laos. He has an insect business based there I believe. Also some YouTube videos: Sounds like a fun trip. Thank you for this post, mr. Collard was contacted and will be a collaborator during the Laos expedition |
|
|
|
Post by 18duroe on Jan 1, 2019 16:28:17 GMT -8
Bart,
we’d love to be updated on your travels there.
I was in Cambodia in March 2018 but sadly didn’t do as much collecting as I would have liked to.
I’m looking forward to seeing what you catch!
|
|
|
|
Post by papiliotheona on Jan 1, 2019 19:09:46 GMT -8
I suspect that there are no Teinopalpus in Cambodia. The only CITES listed species there should be Troides aeacus and helena. Adam. I may be mixing it up with Laos, but the point stands--even CITES II and III specimens are functionally off-limits to civilian collectors without exception. Governments will not give CITES permits out for private collecting, just for official research purposes or governmental/museum collecting, and that may be a requirement of the CITES policy itself. |
|
|
|
Post by 18duroe on Jan 2, 2019 7:02:42 GMT -8
I suspect that there are no Teinopalpus in Cambodia. The only CITES listed species there should be Troides aeacus and helena. Adam. I may be mixing it up with Laos, but the point stands--even CITES II and III specimens are functionally off-limits to civilian collectors without exception. Governments will not give CITES permits out for private collecting, just for official research purposes or governmental/museum collecting, and that may be a requirement of the CITES policy itself. I think the concern dosent lie in the collecting aspect as some countries don’t protect the cites species, but in the transportation as transport of the specimens to your home country would result in needing the permit. |
|
|
|
Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 2, 2019 7:44:08 GMT -8
Actually in most countries private individuals can apply for CITES permits if they have documentation for the specimens they want to move from one country to another, so someone in the UK who legally imported CITES listed species or obtained them from someone else along with permits can apply for an export permit in order to send them to the USA, for example. However, CITES is basically about trade (that's what the T in CITES stands for) so in some coutries private citizens cannot apply for a permit easily, but a business can. This would probably be the case in many of the countries of origin of the specimens when applying for a permit for wild collected or bred specimens as opposed to applying for an export permit for specimens which were previously imported with permits.
Adam.
|
|
|
|
Post by papiliotheona on Jan 3, 2019 12:49:36 GMT -8
What countries (anywhere) will issue CITES permits to private or commercial collectors, and what's the point if the insects in question are listed by the countries themselves anyway? Virtually every single European country, for instance, blanket-protects Papilionidae, so P. apollo being on CITES II is kind of irrelevant, not that any bureaucrat in their right mind would give CITES paperwork to Joe Schmoe tourist with a net.
|
|
|
|
Post by exoticimports on Jan 4, 2019 4:36:53 GMT -8
What countries (anywhere) will issue CITES permits to private or commercial collectors, and what's the point if the insects in question are listed by the countries themselves anyway? Virtually every single European country, for instance, blanket-protects Papilionidae, so P. apollo being on CITES II is kind of irrelevant, not that any bureaucrat in their right mind would give CITES paperwork to Joe Schmoe tourist with a net. CITES permits are nothing more than a signature on a piece of paper. That's nothing compared to convincing the local Natural Resources staff to give you a collecting/ study permit, export license, etc.; but if they do, the CITES is just one more signature. Whether that satisfies, is redundant to, or in conflict with some other country's import regulations is not material to the collecting. It's bureacracy, which exists primarily to generate income for it's supporters. You don't have to like it, you're not going to change it, that's the way it is. The bureaucracy and persecution of the innocent by bureaucrats to generate work is why I abandoned my license. It just wasn't worth the hassle. I figured I'm doing research on my time and my money, yet USFWS always had to create hardships and cost more money. So now no more research- doesn't make sense to anyone except those who profit from it. Chuck |
|
|
|
Post by lucanidae25 on Jan 12, 2019 7:34:32 GMT -8
insectnet.proboards.com/thread/4837/back-collecting-trip-cambodiaI spent 4 weeks collecting in Cambodia in 2013. It was totally safe to collect in Cambodia, the problems I've found were transportation and generator. I end up hiring a driver with a generator for 3 weeks, so I have the freedom to go anywhere I want. If there's any issues my driver would deal with it. The best areas for my collecting were Mt Bokor, Cardamon Mt and Kap. Mt Bokor was the easiest because it was providly owen by one person but the biggest problem was there's only one 4 star hotel to stay and I can only afford to stay 5 nights but you can collect anything you want while you are a gast at the hotel.
|
|
|
|
Post by bartcoppens on Jan 16, 2019 3:03:56 GMT -8
Another few things I have wondered.
1. When I return back home, is it easy to bring legally collected insect specimens with me through customs?
2. From my flight from the Netherlands to Cambodia, I have been considering bringing (live) cocoons along with me of a native species (Attacus atlas) sourced from the region (semi-local livestock), so I can immediately start breeding when I arrive.
I understand customs will not be too happy if they are live insects however. What will happen if customs find them by chance? I fly from the Netherlands, to China, to Siem Reap airport.
|
|
|
|
Post by bartcoppens on Jan 16, 2019 3:06:17 GMT -8
I should add I am the junior conservator of the Rotterdam natural history museum, I can use my museum powers to acquire permits should I want. But I do not feel the need to, since I want to focus my work on moths, none of which are CITES protected (only butterflies so far).
Looks like I will have a freezer to use and keep the specimens fresh, that is good news.
Oh and 3. - should I tell customs I will be traveling for work in the country, or is it easier to say I'm just a traveler?
|
|
|
|
Post by bartcoppens on Jan 16, 2019 4:42:35 GMT -8
And last but not least: 4. What to look out for when light trapping? I know about Saturniidae, but I am less experienced with other families of Lepidoptera, or even insects in general. I am open to collecting things like katydids, beetles, et cetera.. but do not know how to distinguish the common from the interesting things. Are there any species in the area that are interesting to investigate? Potential rarities, undescribed species, families we know little about? Species that I can expect to find, with scientific value? Fill me in fellow entomologists |
|
|
|
Post by Paul K on Jan 16, 2019 5:04:07 GMT -8
We are not allowed to work in any country of the world without work visa or work permit. You must say your purpose of visit is tourist (unless you have work visa on your hand). Other than that you may have to wait on airport for your first flight back home.
|
|
|
|
Post by Paul K on Jan 16, 2019 6:30:44 GMT -8
You should declare your insects when you entering most of the countries, I believe EU too. If you tell customs you have a live cocoons they will confiscate them, that is guaranteed.
When you come back from that region of the world and you travel without your “better half” depend on your age there is a big chance that if you don’t declare anything you will still go thru check up.
Customs will look for possible drug smuggling. If they find your insects you may say goodbye to them if not declared.
Don not bring anything live unless you have permit.
|
|
|
|
Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 16, 2019 6:32:12 GMT -8
Often the most interesting moths come to light either just as it is getting dark (sometimes even before) or within the first hour, so it is VERY important to turn the light on early. You will find that different species fly at different times, and indeed some of the interesting ones don't fly until very late at night, so don't turn off the light at midnight thinking nothing else will come in.
Adam.
|
|
|
|
Post by Paul K on Jan 16, 2019 6:37:04 GMT -8
Unless you are studying specific family or group you will not recognize or know what is common or rare until after you will look thru your material ( 95% will be common species)
There are simply too many insects to comprehend.
My advice focus on moths but not Saturniidae or Sphingidae, those are well studied same as butterflies if you wish to find new species or subspecies.
|
|
|
|
Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 16, 2019 6:44:31 GMT -8
Another few things I have wondered. 1. When I return back home, is it easy to bring legally collected insect specimens with me through customs? 2. From my flight from the Netherlands to Cambodia, I have been considering bringing (live) cocoons along with me of a native species (Attacus atlas) sourced from the region (semi-local livestock), so I can immediately start breeding when I arrive. I understand customs will not be too happy if they are live insects however. What will happen if customs find them by chance? I fly from the Netherlands, to China, to Siem Reap airport. I assume 1 is a question about European customs, and 2 is about Cambodian customs. If you take live atlas cocoons to Cambodia you should pack them in a sealed plastic box and put that inside the suitcase in between your clothes for protection. DO NOT hand carry it as you might get stopped going through security either leaving Holland or more likely in China. With regard to possibly being stopped by Dutch customs on your return it shouldn't be a problem, but it would be a good idea to carry identification proving that you are a junior conservator of the Rotterdam natural history museum. I assume that you have a museum pass card or similar that you can take with you in case you need it on return. Adam. |
|
|
|
Post by Paul K on Jan 16, 2019 6:51:36 GMT -8
Another few things I have wondered. 1. When I return back home, is it easy to bring legally collected insect specimens with me through customs? 2. From my flight from the Netherlands to Cambodia, I have been considering bringing (live) cocoons along with me of a native species (Attacus atlas) sourced from the region (semi-local livestock), so I can immediately start breeding when I arrive. I understand customs will not be too happy if they are live insects however. What will happen if customs find them by chance? I fly from the Netherlands, to China, to Siem Reap airport. I assume 1 is a question about European customs, and 2 is about Cambodian customs. If you take live atlas cocoons to Cambodia you should pack them in a sealed plastic box and put that inside the suitcase in between your clothes for protection. DO NOT hand carry it as you might get stopped going through security either leaving Holland or more likely in China. With regard to possibly being stopped by Dutch customs on your return it shouldn't be a problem, but it would be a good idea to carry identification proving that you are a junior conservator of the Rotterdam natural history museum. I assume that you have a museum pass card or similar that you can take with you in case you need it on return. Adam. Ok, I am not following here, do you want to bring live cocoons of Attacus atlas from Holland to Cambodia? It seems like you’re bringing wood to the forest. |
|
|
|
Post by Adam Cotton on Jan 16, 2019 7:50:18 GMT -8
As far as I understand Bart does want to take live cocoons of SE Asian Attacus atlas with him to start a breeding program in Cambodia. It may be rather difficult for him to obtain wild breeding stock there in the dry season, and at least I guess that he can use them to teach the locals how to rear them.
Adam.
|
|
|
|
Post by bartcoppens on Jan 16, 2019 7:58:03 GMT -8
As far as I understand Bart does want to take live cocoons of SE Asian Attacus atlas with him to start a breeding program in Cambodia. It may be rather difficult for him to obtain wild breeding stock there in the dry season, and at least I guess that he can use them to teach the locals how to rear them. Adam. This is my intention, sorry, I should have clarified better. I am hired there to set up a breeding programme, among a few other things, and it would be much more convenient if I arrived with livestock ready to go. I sourced cocoons from Thailand, so there is minimal genetic pollution - however the insects will remain in captivity indefinitely and will not be released, just to set up a breeding program. It is also a native species in the area in Cambodia, so while I am reluctant to bring livestock to tropical places, the risk here is minimal in my opinion since they are A) native and B) from a nearby population and would make the job easier. The specimens are indeed what I will take back home to the Netherlands,(on the return flight) - they will be collected legally in Cambodia. Even though the specimens are 100% legal, I have heard horror stories of customs finding them and destroying them for rediculous reasons. |
|
|
|
Post by bartcoppens on Jan 16, 2019 8:06:32 GMT -8
Unless you are studying specific family or group you will not recognize or know what is common or rare until after you will look thru your material ( 95% will be common species) There are simply too many insects to comprehend. My advice focus on moths but not Saturniidae or Sphingidae, those are well studied same as butterflies if you wish to find new species or subspecies. Thank you. My specialism are Saturniidae and I agree it is unlikely that I will find anything completely new. However, I believe that in Cambodia there could be common species that have not been recorded before in the country itself. Somehow, all the neighbouring countries seem to have 30 tot 50 species of Saturniidae, but if I consider Cambodia I count about 16 to 18 species. I believe this is a lack of records, possibly because of the countries history that made it not very accessible to researchers for a while. I will however not only be collecting Saturniidae, but also a little bit of everything I can capture. All the specimens will be donated to two natural history museum in the Netherlands; Naturalis in Leiden and Rotterdam. Here experts will work on identifying the material down to species level, so SHOULD there be anything new or unusual, then I will know, and will be potentially be involved with further research. So my question was more or less: "what groups are more or less scientifically interesting?" especially some groups I do not study myself. Because I can get everything identified and researched when I return to the Netherlands, but the only flaw in my plan is that I do not know what to look for - so tips are welcome |
|
|
|
Post by Paul K on Jan 16, 2019 9:04:18 GMT -8
As far as I understand Bart does want to take live cocoons of SE Asian Attacus atlas with him to start a breeding program in Cambodia. It may be rather difficult for him to obtain wild breeding stock there in the dry season, and at least I guess that he can use them to teach the locals how to rear them. Adam. This is my intention, sorry, I should have clarified better. I am hired there to set up a breeding programme, among a few other things, and it would be much more convenient if I arrived with livestock ready to go. I sourced cocoons from Thailand, so there is minimal genetic pollution - however the insects will remain in captivity indefinitely and will not be released, just to set up a breeding program. It is also a native species in the area in Cambodia, so while I am reluctant to bring livestock to tropical places, the risk here is minimal in my opinion since they are A) native and B) from a nearby population and would make the job easier. The specimens are indeed what I will take back home to the Netherlands,(on the return flight) - they will be collected legally in Cambodia. Even though the specimens are 100% legal, I have heard horror stories of customs finding them and destroying them for rediculous reasons. That make sense, good luck with the breading program. |
|
|
|
Post by bartcoppens on Jan 21, 2019 15:14:06 GMT -8
Thanks for all the tips.
What do you guys think of the livestock? What are the chances of them looking at it? Would it give more than just funny looks?
Regards,
Bart
|
|
most of the operations will be light trapping
