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Post by laurie1 on May 11, 2016 1:55:02 GMT -8
Amen Chuck! I couldn't have put it better myself. Because of narrow minded uninformed people (and jealous back-stabbing professional entomologists)I've hung up my collecting net and am now seriously considering giving up butterflies all together as a result of NZ border control making me a) feel like a criminal and b) damaging so many insects during biosecurity and CITES "inspections". When does a hobby stop being a hobby? In my books when you're tired of being bent over.
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Post by exoticimports on May 11, 2016 4:37:15 GMT -8
Amen Chuck! I couldn't have put it better myself. Because of narrow minded uninformed people (and jealous back-stabbing professional entomologists)I've hung up my collecting net and am now seriously considering giving up butterflies all together as a result of NZ border control making me a) feel like a criminal and b) damaging so many insects during biosecurity and CITES "inspections". When does a hobby stop being a hobby? In my books when you're tired of being bent over. Don't let the bastards get you down (too much). I haven't quit, I'm taking a hiatus. I'm taking a break to see the world around my home which I'd neglected for decades. There are popular hikes and beautiful vistas and unusual geography (bogs, I love bogs..and swamps) within an hour's drive. For years people assume I must have been to those places, but no. I can tell you where to get custom boots made just off Rama IV road, that the famous photo spot of the Sphinx and pyramids is shot from the KFC parking lot, where NOT to eat chicken on Rarotonga, the best place to buy pearls in Hanoi, who has the best prawns at the Sydney Seafood Market, where to sit in Munda and find papilio bridgei using "highways", and that the flight from Tuvalu to Tarawa is on Wednesday. But, I've only seen the Grand Canyon from 30,000 feet, haven't been to the Everglades in 40 years. I've been to NYC once, just to meet JT there to catch Carmen. Some day I'd like to see the Soo locks, sail the Chesapeake, visit Fort Niagara. What I've found is that there is so much to see locally that I'd put off for decades. Not that there are lots of incredible insects, and the chance of discovery of something significant (read: big and shiny) is low. But it is a very refreshing break. I'll get back to it, but not at the same level, or the same cost. And I'll be more relaxed with more time, so will be less concerned with negligent activity and bureaucracy from government agencies. Chuck
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Post by beetlehorn on Jun 3, 2018 14:41:31 GMT -8
After reading this post, I am inclined to believe that certain people in the agency make up the rules as they see fit. It sure seems like they are purposely trying to make things difficult, and frustrating for the hobbyist. There are some very fine people in the USFWS, but like any other job, there are those that use their position to make things tough on insect collectors. Perhaps they need to exercise their authority so forcefully, and in such a way that elevates their self esteem to a point of total self righteousness. Or maybe they don't see insect collecting as an appropriate activity, so they make situations so frustrating for legitimate collectors that we are inclined to just give it all up. I don't know or understand all of this.
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Post by T.C. on Jun 3, 2018 19:53:33 GMT -8
- edited by admin - (please don’tt forget you are on a public forum. ;-) )
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Jun 3, 2018 21:50:36 GMT -8
Yes, we must be respectful of others on this Pubic Orgasmation.
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Post by exoticimports on Jun 4, 2018 7:38:17 GMT -8
After reading this post, I am inclined to believe that certain people in the agency make up the rules as they see fit. It sure seems like they are purposely trying to make things difficult, and frustrating for the hobbyist. There are some very fine people in the USFWS, but like any other job, there are those that use their position to make things tough on insect collectors. Perhaps they need to exercise their authority so forcefully, and in such a way that elevates their self esteem to a point of total self righteousness. Or maybe they don't see insect collecting as an appropriate activity, so they make situations so frustrating for legitimate collectors that we are inclined to just give it all up. I don't know or understand all of this. Undoubtedly, there are some at USFWS who simply hate bug collecting, or believe that amateurs shouldn't be collecting or contributing to scientific study. The latter point you will find support for this opinion in the museums and research facilities as well. I donated thousands of specimens- including type specimens- to three museums and not a one was willing to sign me on as an associated researcher. The majority of USFWS (and DEA, BATFE, other gov agencies and law enforcement) simply follow the law. They don't question if what they're doing is in the best interest of anyone or the environment, they just do as they are told- that's how one stays employed. Sadly, over time as they mature they become part of the problem rather than part of the solution. Case in point- USFWS I'm certain peruses these forums daily- but they don't participate, don't offer advice. In fact, I would bet a whole lot of money that there is policy in place that they are not allowed to contribute. Then there are the rabid enforcers who want the notoriety and career boost. Case in point is USFWS pushing Yoshi to import the "grand slam" of CITES I butterflies when they could have put an end to it much earlier. It was all for personal gain. Sad, but greed and power are common human traits, and they are easily rationalized. That said, one can import into USA, and there are laws that enable one to do so. As in any business, to stay in business one must build a reputation and alliances, and know who to avoid. The major importers have years of experience in this politicing, which is just as important as a reputable supply chain and knowledge of entomology. If one is serious, get a license, make some friends on the inside who will help and support you, and find out which USFWS individuals and offices to avoid. In USA we have "rights" and importing bugs isn't one of them (and even most rights have been extremely compromised) so you have to learn to play the game. Importing bugs without the license and/or 3-177 is just asking for trouble. You want one bug now and then and don't want the cost and hassle of licensing? Find an importer that will do it for you. IMHO saving $30 on a pair of stupid, commercial Ornithoptera by importing without license instead of buying from a licensed retailer is petty. Everybody wants to buy ultra-cheap Imperialis from Vietnam, and, frankly they are being bred so why not? But there is a solution, the Vietnamese (and Chinese) sellers simply have to pay off some politicians, who pay off some CITES official, and voila everything is legal. People cry when they don't receive a package because they got scammed. Well, licensing on both the export and import side drastically reduces that risk. I don't agree with the obscene difficulties of personal importing, but I can understand why USFWS doesn't have much pity on those who avoid the rules to save a few dollars. Some may piss and moan, but then by that token we should be able import guns, cigarettes, million dollar boats, and gasoline without licenses or oversight, right? Chuck
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Post by T.C. on Jun 11, 2018 21:21:15 GMT -8
- edited by admin - (please don’tt forget you are on a public forum. ;-) )
Why was it edited? Or fully deleted?
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Post by admin on Jun 12, 2018 0:29:11 GMT -8
For a non-respect of our rules. No big deal, I send you a PM with more details.
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Post by beetlehorn on Jun 17, 2018 18:01:39 GMT -8
After doing some research, I have found that the US is really the only country that enforces some of the most stupid/ridiculous regulations on this planet!!!! No real concern for habitat protection......which as anyone with an IQ of 50 or more knows IS the real threat to any wildlife, including insects. Oh! But no....lets restrict the collector, because that's much easier than going out in the field and promoting habitat preservation or even restoration. Logic is definately not one of their attributes in regards to laws and regulations that would make a real difference in protecting wildlife populations. If the governments of this world didn't ruin natural habitats, the wildlife in those habitats would not be nearly as challenged.
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Post by exoticimports on Jun 19, 2018 3:48:31 GMT -8
After doing some research, I have found that the US is really the only country that enforces some of the most stupid/ridiculous regulations on this planet!!!! No real concern for habitat protection......which as anyone with an IQ of 50 or more knows IS the real threat to any wildlife, including insects. Oh! But no....lets restrict the collector, because that's much easier than going out in the field and promoting habitat preservation or even restoration. Logic is definately not one of their attributes in regards to laws and regulations that would make a real difference in protecting wildlife populations. If the governments of this world didn't ruin natural habitats, the wildlife in those habitats would not be nearly as challenged. Most laws are introduced to "solve" a real problem, without upsetting the status quo. In some cases, the problem is created by the politicians and media and then "solved" which boosts political support; that's called racketeering but nobody gets prosecuted for it. In most cases though, there is some basis in fact for the problem. The solution (laws) are feel-good measures that boost political positioning, while satisfying the sheeple. It also has the political benefit of having "solved" the problem without making uncomfortable changes. These uncomfortable changes are those that we as a society don't want to adapt to, or are unwilling to admit. In USA the real problem isn't "assault rifles" it's uncontrolled urban youths and media spotlight on the mentally deranged. Greater than 80% of US highway deaths are caused by sober drivers, but the focus is on DUI- because to reduce the sober death rate would be very uncomfortable. CITES is no different. Who doesn't want to save the rhinos, elephants, and Ornithoptera? We all do! But very few would support truly effective solutions. Who wants to put US troops into South Africa with orders for wholesale slaughter of rhino poachers? Who wants to subsidize the SA economy to the tune of 100 billion dollars each year? Do we send the Australian troops into New Guinea to stop logging and Alexandrae poaching? What politician wants to fund Ornithoptera research and breeding in far away PNG when there is no political gain? So what we get is half-assed feel good measures that satisfy the sheeple, with the added benefit of increased government employment. USFWS and CITES would argue that what they do is better than nothing. In some cases, they might be right. In most cases, I argue that their efforts are largely ineffective, not because the laws are circumvented, or enforcement under-funded, but because the basic plan is unsound. But for most involved, the goal isn't truly to save a species or environment, it's personal gain, be it political power or cash via employment. Reading that will undoubtedly anger some USFWS employee who is well meaning and working the best they can within a system they see as restrictive. The fact remains though that in order to achieve the real goal some serious admissions must be made, and some unpopular (and perhaps repulsive) action have to be taken- anything else is a token effort. I'd argue that most insect collectors are no better. In buying commercial specimens there may be a "feel good" effect on rural, remote economies, but the fact is that the procurement is to satisfy a personal desire. Field work has far more impact on the environment (in a good way) than buying a commercially bred specimen. I argue that collecting and collating ten Pieris rapae is of greater value than buying one O. victoria. So armchair collectors shouldn't be complaining about USFWS and CITES. Some members here have made significant contributions to science by collecting and curating specimens. Vernon and Leroy have performed such incredible work that their efforts will not truly be recognized in our lifetimes. And people like Adam make sense of their work. John and John have done their fare share of studies, and I like to think I've made some small contribution. These men like Vernon, Leroy, and Adam are truly giants in ecological studies and preservation. And I don't hear them complaining about USFWS or CITES. Perhaps if we want to be part of the solution we should emulate them.
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Jun 19, 2018 10:26:55 GMT -8
I have never had much interest in exotic material from the tropics or even from countries other than the USA and Canada. From time to time I purchase Pupae and Ova and even give/exchange specimens with friends. I have never sold specimens. I have enough to collect, discover and to curate to last a lifetime. I have been a Lepidopterists for over 60 years. I enjoy getting out into the field to find new species and interesting specimens. I enjoy using Traps to collect specimens. I am amazed at what I can find and collect.
However, I have other interest, I have a family and friends. I enjoy fishing with my sons and friend and I also enjoy travelling around the country with my wife. I just like to "Get Among Them".
Besides, I see the price tags on some of these rare neotropical or African species. I do not have that kind of money.
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Post by beetlehorn on Jun 20, 2018 21:26:32 GMT -8
I realize that there needs to be some regulation in regards to importing/exporting wildlife for commercial purposes. It is much more of a critical issue when considering birds, mammals and especially reptiles. Insects simply have a much higher degree of reproductive capability than other wildlife, and I have a hunch that insects are probably lowest in priority to wildlife agencies. In my previous post I was trying to make the statement regarding the importance of habitat protection as compared to regulating collecting of insects. There are some insects, especially butterflies that truly need protection from collecting, (especially from commercial exploitation) of that I have no doubt. Some examples are Papilio aristodemus-(ssp. ponceanus), Papilio homerus, Speyeria idalia-(the eastern ssp.), and Neonympha mitchelli just to name a few. In each and every case the one factor responsible for their demise is habitat destruction, not collecting. So wouldn't it be wiser to put the effort towards habitat restoration or protecting wild places that certain species in trouble need for long term survival? This seems to me the most logical thing to do. I know all of this sounds over simplified in regards to the complexity of the problems that we have. In comparison it is much like the immigration problems the US is dealing with.
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