Package refused clearance for no apparent reason

[mothman27]

I recently ordered some bugs through ebay from a foreign country(having done this before). The package was refused clearance to the US for an unknown reason. 
The insects were dead Odontolabis and Hexatharius, obviously unprotected and not on the CITES list.
Does anyone know why they would not be cleared?

[Paul K]

Bad mood of US custom officer

[mothman27]

Do you think it would happen again?

[billgarthe]

This is THE most frustrating part of this hobby. I have long since not renewed my license and have not imported for years now. Hopefully you have a license and filled out a Form 3-177, for if you did not, not only might it be stopped, but they may inform you that a license ($100) per year is required and the form needs to be done up. Good luck.

[ornithorchid]

Two months ago, I ordered from Germany (done this 4X before, same source).
I received the package, with a note inside stating that the normal process was not followed: the Form 3-177 was not on file.
They were kind enough to file it for me and reminded me that this form is mandatory. It was the first time I heard about the 3-177.
Too many (useless) rules to put (regular) people into trouble. They should go for the real FISH in the pond.

[mothman27]

I too have imported dead material two times before this(through ebay)with no problem without form and no one told me anything.
I figured that if a form was needed, ebay, or someone, would notify me. 
Does the form have to be shipped with the package? Where do I send the completed form? I would gladly have filled it out if I knew about it.

Is the $100 licence mandatory?

Thank you,
Tim 

[billgarthe]

See if u can find this subject in past posts. It all is quite lengthy to write out each time. If u cannot find any, call me.

[mothman27]

insectnet.proboards.com/thread/2156/situation

[trehopr1]

Some common knowledge to pass along here. When you order something off of EBay and are knowingly purchasing something which is coming from anywhere outside of the U.S. --- you risk not only having it confiscated and or held; you risk the monetary loss. I'm sure there are some sort of forms to fill out but, none of that matters if the seller is a well known dealer who is also known to dabble in the illicit sales of bats, lizards, and amphibians as well !
Many sellers overseas particularly from S.E.Asia will sell just about anything that walks,crawls,or flies for a buck (insect or otherwise). I believe fully that U.S.F+W in conjunction with the postal service has probably "tagged" many of the more prolific dabblers in wildlife sales. Should their address or business name come up they are automatically sorted to the side. Occasionally an anomaly lets them get thru.
The point is that I have in fact seen some dealers post warnings next to their specimen descriptions declaring "this item may be seized by your authority". So that tells you right away they know they have been tagged or that they know they may be selling something questionable or even knowingly illicit. Why risk it ? And quite frankly the old worn out phrase of "I did'nt know" there was a form to fill out or that a monetary fee was involved in the package processing is really worn out. It's been used too often.
Stay on the GOOD side of F&W and order your specimens thru what few accredited dealers remain here in the U.S. They have paid for the privilege of selling their insect wares and they won't sell anything questionable. Their pricing may reflect this fact but, doing what you have been doing (even if only 2 or 3 times) still means you have attempted to circumvent proper due process and F&W does not take kindly to that. Tread lightly in these matters grasshopper.

[morphonut]

Trehopr1 brings up some very good points but it gets even more complicated. Most of us here in the US are now aware of the legal situation of importing specimens from overseas and try to have permits in order. However, some foreign dealers are aware of our strict laws and use insidious and unscrupulous tactics to make overseas sales. There is currently a dealer from "Garland, Texas" who sells Mexican material on ebay saying specimens are already here in the US. This puts buyers at ease and probably increases sales. I ordered in good faith. However, when my parcel came to my home recently it arrived via DHL from MEXICO. Fortunately it arrived safely without permits but if there had been an inquiry I might have lost my money and the specimens. More importantly I would have had my good name "tagged" and future parcel inquiries as well as more scrutiny coming home across the border from an overseas trip would likely take place. All this because I was misled by a "domestic" dealer. This is because overseas dealers can write any country they want on their ebay source country status. So this is what it has come to....If you attend any of our insect fairs here in the US the vast majority of people are families with naive children thinking about the insect hobby. Many serious older collectors here have given up the hobby because of the legal implications. In Europe and Japan the people at the fairs are mostly adults who do not have to worry because they know that their governments will not prosecute them for collecting insects. It has all tightened up here in the US in the last 20 years or so and I hate to see the way it is heading. What's next prison terms.......

[alandmor]

May 7, 2016 13:05:22 GMT -8 mothman27 said:

I too have imported dead material two times before this(through ebay)with no problem without form and no one told me anything.
I figured that if a form was needed, ebay, or someone, would notify me. 
Does the form have to be shipped with the package? Where do I send the completed form? I would gladly have filled it out if I knew about it.

Is the $100 licence mandatory?

Thank you,
Tim 

Follow the "Policy" link in the InsectNet.com web page header for info and links to USDA, USFW and CITES import requirements:

www.insectnet.com/policy.htm

[billgarthe]

Trehpor1 and morphonut indeed have good true points. Let's make it real simple and call it like it is. Bear in mind that I used to import quite a few times a year and had a license to do so. Not now.......I refused to pay the doubled license fee w no improvements, increases in fees for CITES II stuff, have brokers mandatory, and to be treated as though I'm a thug. If it ain't sold here, I ain't getting it.

1. The USFW WILL eventually require most all to get a commercial license. They have no concept of scientific values, collections of private collectors and they assume everyone is trying to break the law. Call three offices and you'll get three different bits of procedural advice:(. Having more than a few specimens imported more than once means you ....must....be a dealer in their eyes.

2. Each and every bug going into or out of the US must must have a 3-177 form with it.. Buy a $1 butterfly and don't provide a form and bam.....you're done......or could be if the package gets stopped. E decs used to work, but are not guaranteed to be accepted and the pending stage can be quite lengthy.

3. If you dare to buy CITES II material and you'll have to pay fees for such inspections even with a commercial license. A $12 common birdwing will cost (when last I looked) nearly $200 in fees.....CITES fees from USFW + brokerage fees. Buy 1000 $12 common birdwings and the same $200ish fees apply. It pays to buy in bulk, but is expensive for us little guys.

4. The USFW say not to use the mail, but still have a mail data entry point on the form. Those honest people who take a package in for inspection have often been treated like a criminal with Gestapo-like treatment. Really now.....one gets a mailed package in wo inspection and takes it in to the USFW office to do the right thing and they think YOU somehow are violating the laws. How many crooks are going to take a package in for inspection? Really now......

5. Simply put, they don't work for us like they're supposed to.......they want to put an end to this hobby. Btw.....if an EBay seller should list the item location as in the USA, print out that page and keep it. If you do have your package stopped, at least you'll be able to show them that you did not willingly try to sneak it in.

The good old days of this hobby are gone gone and gone:(. Be careful w buying from outside the US and keep very detailed records. Oh.....is prison already a part of their operation? Yes it is. I personally know of three cases of prison time sentences. While this is a great country to live in, there are serious problems.........one big one being the USFW law enforcement. I'm going to sign off now as I'm feeling my bp rising.

[exoticimports]

After more than a dozen years I gave up my USFWS license. I had it because I found it easier to import scientific material on a commercial permit than get a scientific permit every time. Alas, USFWS hassled me so much I just gave up. Let somebody else do the scientific work and museum supplier, I made my contribution.

But one has to remember, USFWS doesn't have the same goals as scientists. Their ultimate goal, like that of all US government agencies I can think of, is employment.

[Chris Grinter]

Using a scientific permit to import specimens you've purchased is never going to fly in the eyes of USFWS. Even if you end up doing research on those specimens and even if you're a published scientist - they are commercial specimens and must be imported as such. Things could have ended up a lot worse than you just leaving frustrated.

If you need to purchase specimens and import them you could potentially buy specimens and donate them to a local entomology collection. As a condition of that donation they have to import them and do the 3-177 so they could be shipped to that museum under a legitimate scientific exemption and you could then borrow the specimens back for your research. This would have to be done honestly, and the specimens would actually have to become the property of that museum, which you would return to them as per whatever appropriate loan agreement is reached.

[exoticimports]

May 9, 2016 5:41:06 GMT -8 Chris Grinter said:

Using a scientific permit to import specimens you've purchased is never going to fly in the eyes of USFWS. Even if you end up doing research on those specimens and even if you're a published scientist - they are commercial specimens and must be imported as such. Things could have ended up a lot worse than you just leaving frustrated.

If you need to purchase specimens and import them you could potentially buy specimens and donate them to a local entomology collection. As a condition of that donation they have to import them and do the 3-177 so they could be shipped to that museum under a legitimate scientific exemption and you could then borrow the specimens back for your research. This would have to be done honestly, and the specimens would actually have to become the property of that museum, which you would return to them as per whatever appropriate loan agreement is reached.

A scientific import permit often requires a scientific export license, which often requires a written letter of association with a recognized (and sometimes snooty) museum. The self-motivated amateur scientist/ explorer is unlikely to get any such letter.

Commercial export permits, on the other hand, typically do not differentiate between self-captured and locally purchased specimens. In fact, it is highly unlikely that anyone researching overseas won't buy specimens from enterprising locals.

Thus, when I had my license I would lawfully export from origin w/ a commercial license, and import into USA with a commercial license. Then, there was nothing prohibiting me from disbursing the specimens to museums and serious amateurs at no or low cost.

That wasn't the problem I had with USFWS. It was being treated like a criminal (how do we know this license isn't something you made? Well, we'll just call that country's wildlife office (the phone number for which hasn't been updated in USFWS records in five years), and seized/bonded packages even though USFWS repeatedly told me "you did nothing wrong."

Nope it was bureaucrats and tough-guy "law enforcement" types who justified their jobs by making my work miserable. Not all were bad; but I'd say about half were, particularly the AICs who were arrogant, rude, and lawless. Maybe it's the job- the younger USFWS agents took interest in my research and specimens, while it seemed the older "management" types cared only about making a bust if they could find some way. Sad.

And thus we find ourselves with a small package of common stuff, already dead, refused entry because somebody didn't fill out some form.

Chuck

[laurie1]

Amen Chuck! I couldn't have put it better myself. Because of narrow minded uninformed people (and jealous back-stabbing professional entomologists)I've hung up my collecting net and am now seriously considering giving up butterflies all together as a result of NZ border control making me a) feel like a criminal and b) damaging so many insects during biosecurity and CITES "inspections". When does a hobby stop being a hobby? In my books when you're tired of being bent over.

[exoticimports]

May 11, 2016 1:55:02 GMT -8 laurie1 said:

Amen Chuck! I couldn't have put it better myself. Because of narrow minded uninformed people (and jealous back-stabbing professional entomologists)I've hung up my collecting net and am now seriously considering giving up butterflies all together as a result of NZ border control making me a) feel like a criminal and b) damaging so many insects during biosecurity and CITES "inspections". When does a hobby stop being a hobby? In my books when you're tired of being bent over.

Don't let the bastards get you down (too much). I haven't quit, I'm taking a hiatus.

I'm taking a break to see the world around my home which I'd neglected for decades. There are popular hikes and beautiful vistas and unusual geography (bogs, I love bogs..and swamps) within an hour's drive. For years people assume I must have been to those places, but no. I can tell you where to get custom boots made just off Rama IV road, that the famous photo spot of the Sphinx and pyramids is shot from the KFC parking lot, where NOT to eat chicken on Rarotonga, the best place to buy pearls in Hanoi, who has the best prawns at the Sydney Seafood Market, where to sit in Munda and find papilio bridgei using "highways", and that the flight from Tuvalu to Tarawa is on Wednesday.

But, I've only seen the Grand Canyon from 30,000 feet, haven't been to the Everglades in 40 years. I've been to NYC once, just to meet JT there to catch Carmen. Some day I'd like to see the Soo locks, sail the Chesapeake, visit Fort Niagara.

What I've found is that there is so much to see locally that I'd put off for decades. Not that there are lots of incredible insects, and the chance of discovery of something significant (read: big and shiny) is low. But it is a very refreshing break.

I'll get back to it, but not at the same level, or the same cost. And I'll be more relaxed with more time, so will be less concerned with negligent activity and bureaucracy from government agencies.

Chuck

[beetlehorn]

After reading this post, I am inclined to believe that certain people in the agency make up the rules as they see fit. It sure seems like they are purposely trying to make things difficult, and frustrating for the hobbyist. There are some very fine people in the USFWS, but like any other job, there are those that use their position to make things tough on insect collectors. Perhaps they need to exercise their authority so forcefully, and in such a way that elevates their self esteem to a point of total self righteousness. Or maybe they don't see insect collecting as an appropriate activity, so they make situations so frustrating for legitimate collectors that we are inclined to just give it all up. I don't know or understand all of this.

[T.C.]

- edited by admin -
(please don’tt forget you are on a public forum. ;-) )

[leptraps]

Yes, we must be respectful of others on this Pubic Orgasmation.

[exoticimports]

Jun 3, 2018 14:41:31 GMT -8 beetlehorn said:

After reading this post, I am inclined to believe that certain people in the agency make up the rules as they see fit. It sure seems like they are purposely trying to make things difficult, and frustrating for the hobbyist. There are some very fine people in the USFWS, but like any other job, there are those that use their position to make things tough on insect collectors. Perhaps they need to exercise their authority so forcefully, and in such a way that elevates their self esteem to a point of total self righteousness. Or maybe they don't see insect collecting as an appropriate activity, so they make situations so frustrating for legitimate collectors that we are inclined to just give it all up. I don't know or understand all of this.

Undoubtedly, there are some at USFWS who simply hate bug collecting, or believe that amateurs shouldn't be collecting or contributing to scientific study. The latter point you will find support for this opinion in the museums and research facilities as well. I donated thousands of specimens- including type specimens- to three museums and not a one was willing to sign me on as an associated researcher.

The majority of USFWS (and DEA, BATFE, other gov agencies and law enforcement) simply follow the law. They don't question if what they're doing is in the best interest of anyone or the environment, they just do as they are told- that's how one stays employed. Sadly, over time as they mature they become part of the problem rather than part of the solution. Case in point- USFWS I'm certain peruses these forums daily- but they don't participate, don't offer advice. In fact, I would bet a whole lot of money that there is policy in place that they are not allowed to contribute.

Then there are the rabid enforcers who want the notoriety and career boost. Case in point is USFWS pushing Yoshi to import the "grand slam" of CITES I butterflies when they could have put an end to it much earlier. It was all for personal gain. Sad, but greed and power are common human traits, and they are easily rationalized.

That said, one can import into USA, and there are laws that enable one to do so. As in any business, to stay in business one must build a reputation and alliances, and know who to avoid. The major importers have years of experience in this politicing, which is just as important as a reputable supply chain and knowledge of entomology. If one is serious, get a license, make some friends on the inside who will help and support you, and find out which USFWS individuals and offices to avoid. In USA we have "rights" and importing bugs isn't one of them (and even most rights have been extremely compromised) so you have to learn to play the game. Importing bugs without the license and/or 3-177 is just asking for trouble. You want one bug now and then and don't want the cost and hassle of licensing? Find an importer that will do it for you.

IMHO saving $30 on a pair of stupid, commercial Ornithoptera by importing without license instead of buying from a licensed retailer is petty. Everybody wants to buy ultra-cheap Imperialis from Vietnam, and, frankly they are being bred so why not? But there is a solution, the Vietnamese (and Chinese) sellers simply have to pay off some politicians, who pay off some CITES official, and voila everything is legal.

People cry when they don't receive a package because they got scammed. Well, licensing on both the export and import side drastically reduces that risk.

I don't agree with the obscene difficulties of personal importing, but I can understand why USFWS doesn't have much pity on those who avoid the rules to save a few dollars. Some may piss and moan, but then by that token we should be able import guns, cigarettes, million dollar boats, and gasoline without licenses or oversight, right?

Chuck

[T.C.]

Jun 3, 2018 19:53:33 GMT -8 T.C. said:

- edited by admin -
(please don’tt forget you are on a public forum. ;-) )

Why was it edited? Or fully deleted?

[admin]

For a non-respect of our rules.
No big deal, I send you a PM with more details.

[beetlehorn]

After doing some research, I have found that the US is really the only country that enforces some of the most stupid/ridiculous regulations on this planet!!!! No real concern for habitat protection......which as anyone with an IQ of 50 or more knows IS the real threat to any wildlife, including insects. Oh! But no....lets restrict the collector, because that's much easier than going out in the field and promoting habitat preservation or even restoration. Logic is definately not one of their attributes in regards to laws and regulations that would make a real difference in protecting wildlife populations. If the governments of this world didn't ruin natural habitats, the wildlife in those habitats would not be nearly as challenged.

[exoticimports]

Jun 17, 2018 18:01:39 GMT -8 beetlehorn said:

After doing some research, I have found that the US is really the only country that enforces some of the most stupid/ridiculous regulations on this planet!!!! No real concern for habitat protection......which as anyone with an IQ of 50 or more knows IS the real threat to any wildlife, including insects. Oh! But no....lets restrict the collector, because that's much easier than going out in the field and promoting habitat preservation or even restoration. Logic is definately not one of their attributes in regards to laws and regulations that would make a real difference in protecting wildlife populations. If the governments of this world didn't ruin natural habitats, the wildlife in those habitats would not be nearly as challenged.

Most laws are introduced to "solve" a real problem, without upsetting the status quo.

In some cases, the problem is created by the politicians and media and then "solved" which boosts political support; that's called racketeering but nobody gets prosecuted for it.

In most cases though, there is some basis in fact for the problem. The solution (laws) are feel-good measures that boost political positioning, while satisfying the sheeple. It also has the political benefit of having "solved" the problem without making uncomfortable changes. These uncomfortable changes are those that we as a society don't want to adapt to, or are unwilling to admit.

In USA the real problem isn't "assault rifles" it's uncontrolled urban youths and media spotlight on the mentally deranged. Greater than 80% of US highway deaths are caused by sober drivers, but the focus is on DUI- because to reduce the sober death rate would be very uncomfortable.

CITES is no different. Who doesn't want to save the rhinos, elephants, and Ornithoptera? We all do! But very few would support truly effective solutions. Who wants to put US troops into South Africa with orders for wholesale slaughter of rhino poachers? Who wants to subsidize the SA economy to the tune of 100 billion dollars each year? Do we send the Australian troops into New Guinea to stop logging and Alexandrae poaching? What politician wants to fund Ornithoptera research and breeding in far away PNG when there is no political gain? So what we get is half-assed feel good measures that satisfy the sheeple, with the added benefit of increased government employment.

USFWS and CITES would argue that what they do is better than nothing. In some cases, they might be right. In most cases, I argue that their efforts are largely ineffective, not because the laws are circumvented, or enforcement under-funded, but because the basic plan is unsound. But for most involved, the goal isn't truly to save a species or environment, it's personal gain, be it political power or cash via employment. Reading that will undoubtedly anger some USFWS employee who is well meaning and working the best they can within a system they see as restrictive. The fact remains though that in order to achieve the real goal some serious admissions must be made, and some unpopular (and perhaps repulsive) action have to be taken- anything else is a token effort.

I'd argue that most insect collectors are no better. In buying commercial specimens there may be a "feel good" effect on rural, remote economies, but the fact is that the procurement is to satisfy a personal desire. Field work has far more impact on the environment (in a good way) than buying a commercially bred specimen. I argue that collecting and collating ten Pieris rapae is of greater value than buying one O. victoria. So armchair collectors shouldn't be complaining about USFWS and CITES.

Some members here have made significant contributions to science by collecting and curating specimens. Vernon and Leroy have performed such incredible work that their efforts will not truly be recognized in our lifetimes. And people like Adam make sense of their work. John and John have done their fare share of studies, and I like to think I've made some small contribution. These men like Vernon, Leroy, and Adam are truly giants in ecological studies and preservation. And I don't hear them complaining about USFWS or CITES. Perhaps if we want to be part of the solution we should emulate them.