Post by lucanidae25 on Mar 3, 2012 13:42:24 GMT -8
Right Calodema rubrimarginata and left Metaxymorpha gloriosa both are from tropical rainforests of far northern QLD. When one sp of insect is mimicing another sp, the mimicing sp normally is gaining protection of safety from the mimic models. This is all part of the gloriosa mimicing group.
Are they trying to gain safety in numbers by mimicing one another?
Post by lucanidae25 on Mar 3, 2012 13:47:43 GMT -8
Right Castiarina rollei and left Castiarina erubescens both are from tropical rainforests of far northern QLD. All part of the gloriosa mimicing group and feeding on the same tree. Same overlaps anothers are not.
Post by lucanidae25 on Mar 3, 2012 13:58:02 GMT -8
Right Metaxymorpha immitator and left Metaxymorpha greyi both are from subtropical rainforests of northern NSW and southern QLD. Another example of another mimicing group.
There is also a Castiarina rayclarkei is mimicing Calodema regale in the same areas in northern NSW and Southern QLD but I still haven't found it yet. That's so rare only a few specimens were ever found one year on one tree.
Related species/genera dosen't mean they will look the same, they are doing this for a reason. Well what is the advantage of looking so similar? What do they gain out of it? One sp must be trying to look like another sp to gain safety. This is how mimic works. I think it's safety in numbers, so predators don't pick them off one by one. They are all sp in small numbers but predators only choose all the one looks different and leaving the similar looking one behind.
Rashduo, these are different Genera , Lucanidae who says this is gloriosa group , how do you know who is mimicking who ?Who says this is gloriosa group ? Just because Metaxymorpha gloriosa was discovered before Calodema rubrimarginatum doesn`t mean it is the sp all the others mimick .Maybe they mimick C.rubrimarginatum who can say ?Or do they mimick Castiarina rollei. I collected the Type specimen of Calodema rubrimaginatum , so who is to say which species mimicks which ?? There are other Castiarina which have these colours , I think these are just warning colours bright colours that wasps also display.Many Australian Buprestids have a basic colour of yellow to start with. Calodema rubrimaginatum has a very limited distribrution due to its host plant around the Julaten area , Metaxymoprpha gloriosa`s host plant I also discovered Goia lasionura it has a wide distribution like the species.As for Castiarina clarki go to its distribution area and hang a red bucket up in the canopy and you might be surprised .I shared this collection tecnique with the guy C.clarki was named after many years ago , when I asked the collector of C.clarki did you ever collect any Buprestidae with this type of bucket trap trap I told you about , he said no I caught no Buprestids , very funny statment , several weeks later a couple of beetle collectors came along the road of the border ranges in NSW and here was the collector of C.clarki pulling up red buckets into the canopy of the rainforest on a string , yet he anounces he collected no Buprestids like this ,all of a sudden Metaxymorpha imitator is discovered and many collectors around the world have it .The colour red is a great attractant the the Metatxymorpha and Calodema group also Castiarina rollei and C.erubescens.I think many species are yet to be discovered using red lures to attract them Calodema plebeia is also attracted to the colour red , yet it mimicks none of the above species .Before we can make too many profound statements on Buprestidids mimicking each other more research needs to be done. A bit more thought needs to be put into some comments presented some times by collectors that haven`t even collected the specis they comment about.
All I'm saying is this is not a accident they look alike, Castiarina is the best mimicry genus in Australia. Castiarina is always the one mimicking others like Lycids, Cantharidae, Meloidae etc..... I can give you as many examples as you want to demonstrate Castiarina is the mimicking one, so Metaxymorpha gloriosa and Calodema rubrimaginatum can't be the one mimicking Castiarina rollei. Since Metaxymorpha gloriosa is the most common sp, it will make more sense for other sp to mimic gloriosa. There is also a supper rare Temognatha sp is mimicking Metaxymorpha immitator and Metaxymorpha greyi. The outermost aim of mimicry is to gain protection of safety from another sp and poisonous mimicry isn't the only kind of mimicry. The bucket trap only works if you live near the area. The female still needs to collect on flowers.
I think till you find a reason for mimicking or better definitive proof (poison; a count on the number of beetles eaten; how well it can be spotted in the surrounding) one should be careful stating that "mimicking' happens. Simply looking like other beetle who is not protected in some way from predators doesn't count.
Post by lucanidae25 on Mar 8, 2012 13:35:33 GMT -8
There're two pages just on Lycid mimics Castiarina from " Castiarina Australia's richest jewel beetle genus" by Shelley Barker. So Castiarina can only be the mimicking one and not the other way around. I noted something is going on here from my years of collocting in the fields, I didn't just jump to conclusion by looking at them. This is my area of interests and there for I spend more time thinking on this subject than most other people.
Another perfect example is how the Doliops is mimicking Pachyrrhynchus in Philippines. I don't think Pachyrrhynchus is poisonous, so what dose the Doliops gain from mimicking Pachyrrhynchus? I spent a lot of time thinking about it and the only conclusion is the one that is doing the mimicking is trying to gain protection of safety in numbers from another more common sp. The ratio with Doliops to Pachyrrhynchus is between 1:50 to 1:200 depending on the sp. So Doliops is the one gaining by mimicking Pachyrrhynchus.
Calodema rubrimarginata is only from a very small area calls Rex Ranges in far northern QLD.
How do you know Metaxymorpha gloriosa is more common than Cast rollei ? In my block of rainforest both are abundant , and to say the Calodema and Metaxymorpha are poisonous is maybe ? out of the question , how many have you eaten .There is a bit of heresay evidence of Aussie Bups being toxic but not much published on this , I can`t see all Bups being toxic . I have seen Cane toad ### full of Temognatha regia elytra . Of course a lure like a red bucket is only going to work in the immediate area the beetles occur . I have never seen a Calodema or Metaxymorpha flying in a cane paddock away from the rainforest . Females are also attracted to the colours , as there are red flowers in the rainforest as well and if the females avoided the red then some would starve especialy if their regular foodplants aren`t blossoming .Generally males are attracted to the lures. Those pages of Casts you display are copyright hope you got Shelleys permission to use them .
Those pages of Casts you display are copyright hope you got Shelleys permission to use them .
I'm pretty sure permission was not needed in this instance (correct me if I'm wrong). Everything posted here was with full attribution and only part of a work (doesn't even have image key). Not to mention it was non-profit and is considered "criticism/comment" or "education". This is all covered by the "fair use" copyright exemptions in the USA that tend to be fairly generous. The Australian "fair dealing" exemptions where this book was published are similar but a little more restrictive. UK/AU/EU laws tend to favor the copyright holder more... but at the very least InsectNet is in the clear for having this reproduced here since California has specific statues to prevent foreign copyright laws from affecting US citizens unjustly and there are no grounds for trouble under US law.
Too right! Lucanidae25 has done all the right things By Shelley and referenced him accordingly. If anything, he is doing him a favour by promoting the book.
re; mimicry I think it is just about survival, what ever works will be prreserved, whether it is looking like you're toxic, or what ever. Lets not forget safety in numbers, if there are lots of you and you all look the same there is as much chance your neighbour will get taken out as you, so you don't want to stand out from the crowd.
Lucanidae if you spend more time thinking on this subject than most other people its time to publish your results in a scientific journal , or even here on insectnet forum, anyone can can say oh one beetle sp is bigger than the other or one mimicks the other but what makes you come to that conclusion , this is what furthering knowledge is all about .As you think about it more than anyone else please enlighten us .
Post by mimicbuster on Mar 18, 2012 15:58:49 GMT -8
I've just found this interesting discussion and would like to offer several thoughts to start with: 1) there are defined types of mimicry where a distasteful model does not have to be part of a complex of species, whether in different genera or in the same genus; 2) before the speculation goes too wild, one must consider who/what the predator(s) is because if the main predator is not going to learn that a particular color pattern comes along with a bad taste, what drives the mimics to look like the model?; 3) the concept of 'speed mimicry' probably isn't happening with these buprestids but 'numerical mimicry' is a very good bet to offer an explanation if there is no distasteful model. Numerical mimicry was first suggested for butterflies, but the late Japanese buprestid specialist Y. Kurosawa hypothesized that it was probably happening with a group of buprestids in SE Asia. In that case, ca. 8 species in 5 genera all could be found sitting on leaves in the forest, each having the same iridescent green dorsal color and purple ventral colors. Numerical mimicry posits that in a complex of species which all look alike, that each species will suffer smaller losses because the predators take from each randomly. Thus in the case of Calodema, Metaxymorpha and Castiarina species evolving into the same color patterns and being active in the same habitat and visiting the same flowers, some of the predators at least will likely be attracted to color/pattern before size of the prey. Lastly, please notice that in all(?) other cases where mostly Castiarina species are parts of mimicry groups with models such as lycids, cantharids, and distasteful species from other beetle families, there is no recorded case of a distastful Castiraina model.