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Post by bluemoth on Jan 18, 2011 17:37:18 GMT -8
I set up some kill jars with plaster on the bottom. The jars are small caning ones with air tight lids. Plaster is one inch thick in two of them and one and a half inches thick in the other. I put non acetone nail polish remover in to soak into the plaster. The moths pass out after a few minutes and appear dead. Then they wake up after a few hours. Even when I have used pure methyl acetate in the past I would get moths that woke up. So any suggestions on what to do to prevent moths from awaking? After they pass out I package them then put them in the freezer to make sure they are dead. do I not have anuf plaster for the nail polish to soak into? I am collecting a few Nemoria and do not want to keep them in the kill jar for to long - it might ruin their green scales.
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Post by Chris Grinter on Jan 18, 2011 23:24:43 GMT -8
It just sounds to me like you aren't giving them enough time in the jar to actually die. How long do you wait? I usually leave my specimens in acetate for at least an hour if not over night... but I'm not saying it takes an hour, but there are at least three variables there that i've never tested (dose, time, moth size). I can imagine that at the minimum it might be 20 minutes...
The plaster doesn't effect the kill rate TOO much, anything around a half an inch will be just fine. Of course one thing with Nemoria, if you use too much ethyl acetate (you said methyl??), they can get wet and the color will vanish. Hence, why I hate acetate...
Chris
But, your freezer method is a great one - just not very easy when you're standing at a sheet.
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Post by nomihoudai on Jan 19, 2011 1:08:05 GMT -8
In the "Smaller Moths of South East Asia " The Authors give 30 minutes as minimum time for ethyl acetate, nevertheless I let my bugs too overnight in the jar.
In Switzerland I had caught 100 moth, pinned them the same evening and went to sleep, 4 hours later after a short night I woke up and wanted to check on them , opened the box and all of them were fluttering around, I was feeling like in Pet Sematary, pretty scary and I felt sorry for the pinned down moth.
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Jan 19, 2011 4:38:08 GMT -8
I use an 8 oz straight side jar with Potassium Cyanide, 10 minutes in the jar and they are dead. However, I also have dump jars with Potassium Cyanide. I use the 8 oz jars to collect one or two specimens, leave them for 3 or 4 minutes to knock them down, then into the dump jars. Every 10 or 20 minutes I empty a dump jar and paper the specimens. I place the papered specimens into a Bio-Seal Plastic Container and place that container into a cooler with ice.
When I get home, all of the Bio-Seal Plastic Containers are labeled. A paper label placed in the container on top of the specimens and all four sides with the date collected and the State. I place some moth crystals (PDP) in with the specimens to prevent mold.
Several months later the Bio-Seal Container can be opened and the specimens are soft and pliable just like the night you collected them. Anything over a year old I place the envelopes with the specimens enclosed in my relaxing Container (A Bio-Seal Container) with moist sand, some PDP and a piece of Stainless Steel Screen raised above the moist sand to prevent the envelopes from contacting the moisture.
Although I use Ethyl Acetate as a killing agent in my light traps, I do like it as it will cause specimens to quickly become stiff as the Ethyl Acetate will destroy the fat and muscle in the thorax making specimens difficult to mount. I normally cut the wing muscle on all specimens, especially Skippers and Sphingids before mounting. I leave specimens on the spreading boards for 30+ days.This will prevent wings from lifting.
That's my process, let's hear yours,
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Post by bobw on Jan 19, 2011 6:58:38 GMT -8
I normally cut the wing muscle on all specimens, especially Skippers and Sphingids before mounting. I've heard of this technique and have asked about it on another thread (see "Problems relaxing Charaxes???"). I've tried it myself and even though I've thought that the wings were about to fall off, I've still found that the forewings were too stiff to move with Prepona. Can you give any tips as to exactly where and how to cut? Bob |
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Post by kmyoungs on Jan 19, 2011 7:19:04 GMT -8
I had the same exact problem in my undergraduate ento class..... whoever charged the cyanide jars did a shotty job it turns out. After our first collecting trip we went to the lab where our professor taught us how to pin. After about 10 minutes, once most insects were poorly pinned, the whole classes collection came back to life and was squirming on the pins. After that I have always killed in the freezer, its quick and painless and there is less damage to the specimen because the go to sleep and then they die.
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Post by bluemoth on Jan 19, 2011 8:15:07 GMT -8
Thank you folks for all your advice. Normally I have used the freezer but have had trouble with moths and butterflies folding their wings down in front of them over their legs. When they are small or to delicate to handle I put them in small containers then put the containers in to the freezer. It is very difficult to spread a lep in this condition even when relaxed. So I now have been using the nail polish remover. I have paper towel on the bottom of each jar that prevents contact with the damp plaster and a small bit of kleenex above that prevents to much flying around.
Although Potassium Cyanide is different than the liquid kind it still relay scares me. I worked in a chem lab ware parts were cleaned in different chemicals or plated with different metals. Cyanide was one of the chemicals used to clean copper parts. I was instructed very well as to it's lethal power to kill - that is the fumes at least. I never will use any form of cyanide in a kill jar.
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Post by kmyoungs on Jan 19, 2011 9:03:57 GMT -8
I wouldn't use cyanide either, its what they gave 200 students in an intro Ento course.... Im glad you found a method that helps you. I often put butterflys/moths in plastic baggies in a tupperware container..... I personally have not had many problems pinning once I have defrosted them a little, sometimes I leave them in the tupperware out of the freezer with a wet paper towel to rehydrate.
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Post by modestomoths on Jan 19, 2011 13:45:36 GMT -8
I use an 8 oz straight side jar with Potassium Cyanide ... But where does one get Potassium Cyanide? I'd like to try it, but all of my searches have turned up empty. Travis |
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Jan 19, 2011 17:19:41 GMT -8
This is all I will reveal. I have a friend.
End of conversation!
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Post by modestomoths on Jan 19, 2011 23:59:40 GMT -8
Very well. The search continues.
Until then, I'll keep using ethel acetate. It has a decent knock-out time, and I haven't had trouble with stiff specimens. I will, however, echo the caution about removing specimens too quickly. Ethel acetate knocks out fast, but it doesn't kill for a while. Leave them in for an hour or so, or transfer them to a freezer a.s.a.p. I learned my lesson when I took out a couple of carpenter bees and laid them on the kitchen table. Resurrection!!!
Travis
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Jan 21, 2011 9:31:58 GMT -8
End of conversation has a different meaning than you think. It is called HomeLandSecurity. I hope you understand.
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rjb
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Post by rjb on Jan 21, 2011 13:57:37 GMT -8
Yes cyanide is on a list of chemicals that are controlled in the US. You cannot buy it easily. It is used industrially in electroplating and mineral extraction industries. If you know someone in the right profession, you might acquire some, but it would probably be illegal. Also in other countries it can often be purchased directly, but then it is illegal to transport it back to the US by most carriers. So this is one of those useful chemicals that has become unavailable because it has a dangerous dual-use. Same is true of lots of recreational drug ingredients. That's life in our regulated world.
Rick
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Post by modestomoths on Jan 21, 2011 20:36:34 GMT -8
Anyone, including me, who wants to acquire cyanide illegally would probably have no problem doing so. My quest is for a legitimate supply. And I completely understand and appreciate both the strict regulation and the hesitancy to reveal specific sources.  Travis |
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Post by downundermoths on Jan 24, 2011 0:29:56 GMT -8
I have been collecting moths for many decades now and have always used ethyl acetate with extremely few problems...
I just use a 300gm coffee jar and scrunch up one facial tissue...Then I open the fluid (non-acetone nail varnish remover) and quickly tip it twice against the tissue...Then I loosely wrap another tissue around the first and use that as a killing jar.
After at least 20 minutes I take everything out, put the original scrunched tissue back in the bottom of the jar...Lay the jar on its side...Put a fresh folded tissue on the floor (side) of the jar and then place the moths back on this new tissue...
Wings can be rearranged at this stage. There is no further risk of the specimens becoming wet and I leave the jar on its side overnight...Set, paper or photograph the next day...
Barry
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