Problems relaxing Charaxes???

[nomihoudai]

Hi Bob, I tried to make the promised video but the video just gets awfully large and the quality is poor, you won't see more than shown in the video on insectnet about the papilio. What I can offer on the other hand is this pair of butterflies taht I did mount and you can judge for yourself if they are good or not. The pic is very large, but this is in the purpose that you can check details as good as possible. ( The shoulders are not perfect, but I think the trick on that is putting the needle not at 90° to the body but taking an acute angle to the abdomen and an obtuse angle to the head so the head is a little bit more elevated.)

[boghaunter1]

Hi All,

Any larger & difficult to spread spp. I always cut the wing muscles just slightly below (1/8th") where the wings attach to the sides of the thorax... I use a new sharp pointed blade of a commonly availablea X-acto brand hobby knife...no problem...takes a little practise on cheap specimens but easily solves the problem of ruining $$ specimens. Biggest problem to mounting leps are specimens are not relaxed enough. I also leave my leps on the slightly angled spreading boards for 1-2 months (lots of boards needed)... I find it hard to believe collectors leave them on the boards for only a few days to a wk. (unless cooked in a mini oven)...no wonder wings droop or lift back up, shoulders "kink", etc.

I keep large shingids & other hard to spread Nymphalidae, etc. in a relaxing box for up to about 4 days...after that some permanent water damage occurs (may still have to cut muscles as above especially on older specimens). Injection does help. I've tried all kinds of anti-mould chemicals in the relaxer & always come back to simple, good old crushed up moth balls. Just the other day I looked in an old relaxing box from last winter (1 yr. ago) & there is still no mould growing!

Leaving lep specimens in ethyl acetate jars overnight...never, never...they become so stiff they become unmountable except by cutting wing muscles. I use E. A. killings jars just to knock out & than place in individual mini zip- loks & into deep freeze to finish off. Off the beaten path place on ice paks (I have a fridge in my camper)... for tropics.. ordinary glassine & dried out after no more than 10 minutes in freshly & frequently charged E. A. jars. Cyanide...never used it & much too dangerous & 95% of us have no accesss to it anyways.

I use setting pins to mount leps... same traditional (old Dog)methods for the last 3 decades., but may try using forceps method. As I recall I think it was bgarthe in the old forum who described forceps method very nicely...search the old forum/achives.

...Please note that these are my own experiences ONLY, over the last 35 yrs, & they work for me...they may not for you...everyone has different methods that work for them.

I would really like to know how does one relax the unbelieveably rigid/stiff jaws of some stag beetles to open them up (I actually boiled a specimen on the stove the other day for more than 2 HOURS with no luck!! ). Also relaxing the front legs/ball joint of large Dynastids?... same problem as the stag beetles. I've also used the hot water/complete immersion relaxing method for larger beetles (black colored only...lighter colors may stain & use old fashioned regular relaxing box for them) for many years with no signs of greasing, falling apart later, etc... but one must be very careful & must remove the specimen to check softness sometimes every minute or so or beetle may fall apart (have glued lots back together & comes with the territory!).

John K.

[maliciousinchworm]

Hi,

Very complete and nice post John, I think some of us should follow your valuable tips, 35 years of experience is something to have into consideration, hahaha. I´m very interested in learn how to cut muscles, at it seems a good solution for these hard to mount stuff (forgot the Hesperiidae, this give me some tough moments, they mix the strong muscles with the small size, bad combo!). I may train with some old Sphingidae I left in the bottom of my stock boxes.

Regards,

Alejandro A.

[boghaunter1]

Hi Alejandro,

Thanks for kind words...as you may know...in the southern U.S. states, also in the southwest U.S., Mexico & on into C. Am. there occurs the Giant Skippers (around 30 spp.) ...Megathymus & Agathymus... some more than 3"(75mm) wingspan. I understand they can be impossible to mount up without cutting their very powerful wing muscles. Anyone out there have any experience collecting/rearing these giants of the skipper world?? Any photos?? Any extra specimens??... to practise on.. ;D)

John K.

[bgarthe]

Hi all,

I use EA in killing bottles. The plaster has one inch of sawdust under it to trap more liquid to seep as a gas into the chamber with the insect. A small hole in the plaster allows this easily.

I do inject larger moths and butterflies with isopropyl alcohol in syringes directly. I carry pre-loaded syringes in my collecting bag so I don't have to try to fill a syringe while holding that great capture. This summer I cought my first Ascalapha odorata (Witch Moth) and it was injected right away----I was not letting her beat her wings in the jar.

Cutting is best done right where the veins meet the body on the verso. Instead of cutting first, one might try injecting the verso thorax with Gin. It evaporates and does not destroy any fatty tissues inside the specimen. I also sometimes 'paint' the verso veins with an artist brush with the Gin to help some. After injecting, wait a bit....work the wings some....and either mount if they're ready or inject again.

Softening is done by me using gentle heat. My softening is usually done in 6 to 12 hours at most. Having the bulb heat both speeds up the process and seems to do a more thorough job as higher amounts of water vapor is airborne.

About the wings springing back after positioning, I do the following. I pin the wings loosely down with tracing paper so they're flat on the board. Then I position the wings with my modified forceps from the outside. With the reall small stuff, I use minutens that are super-glued to thin doweling. When the FW is positioned, press your middle finger on the paper ontop of the wing and position the HW. When it is where you want it, press your index finger on the paper to hold the HW in place. Then place glass slides on to keep all in place. Note, I use weighted glass slildes with handles. Each alide has been sanded to a 45 degree angle where they have econtact with the wings so the edges do not cut into the scales and leave marks.

Check out this site.
www.garthesinsectgradebook.20megsfree.com/photo2.html

John, about those nerve-racking large beetles----they are a pain with the ultra-stiff joints and mandibles. I have been loosening them up by trying this. Take an artist paintbrush wet with Gin and touch the spot/crack where the leg meets the body with the brush. The capillary action will carry the Gin down into the spot to relax it more. I do several dabs (each with a wet brush to that crack), then I wait a minute. Then gently work the mandible or leg some. If it is not yet loose, re-do the process. I have had to repeat the dabbing several times in some cases. But it is sure better than that snap when one tries to force the joint to budge.

I also agree with John that each person has his/her own methods. Mine have come in 43 years of collecting and as well as some recent ideas picked up. It is a long on-going process that kind of just happens.

Good luck

p.s. More pics will ensue.

[bgarthe]

Forceps with vinyl siding tips that grab the wings, but are very gentle/non-damaging.

[bgarthe]

Forcep tips up close

[bgarthe]

Drying rack with 25w tubular bulbs. Note that the specimens have both paper strips and glass slides. The paper held the wings down and enabled me to hold the wing in place with my finger until I was done with FW and HW. Then the glass went on.

[bgarthe]

Softener on rack. Sponges are soaked with DISTILLED water and some PDB is used to prevent mold potential.

[bgarthe]

Each specimen is resting on a "V" shaped piece of 1/8 inch screen so as to keep the body off of the very wet sponges.

[dertodesking]

Bill,

I read your tip about gin on the old forum and have used it with success ever since! Thank you ;D

I'd recommend it to everyone (especially anyone with large stiff beetles to relax).

Simon

[bgarthe]

Slides are glued together with Rubber Cement giving them the needed weights. I have them glued together 2 deep, 3 deep, and 4 deep. I also have regular window glass larger slides for the larger material. Each slide has a handle so I can remove them or psoition them without rubbing the wings while moving. Corks work well as handles as do just plain small pieces of wood.

Each slide is sanded with carborundum paper where the edge meets the wing. Such sanding will prevent the edge of the sharp glass from diggin into the wing or scraping it. Careful with the corners---they really need sanding. I get the joy of using both paper strips and glass slides to mount my stuff. Each part has its specific task and soon all this becomes automatic:)

[boghaunter1]

Thanks Bill...

..for the mini refresher course ... I'd forgotten about relaxing with liquor... ;D & also about mounting with forceps... I hate pinholes in the wings! Will definitely give it a try.

John K.

[bgarthe]

You're right John----sorry about all the words Hope your headache ends soon

[bobw]

Much seems to have been written here now about various techniques, most of which I've read before in the old forum but some of which are new.

Much has been made in places of experience. I've got over 50 years experience of collecting, studying and rearing Lepidoptera which has obviously left me with a certain amount of expertise in some fields. However, one thing I've never been able to crack is getting the stronger muscled Lepidoptera such as Charaxinae, Castniidae and Sphingidae sufficiently relaxed to be able to set them easily. I've tried every technique I've read about here (exceot for using forceps instead of needles) and many others and I've yet to find anything that works properly for me. I've read some people say that they can relax a bug for 24 hours and get it as floppy as if it were freshly killed; I cannot believe this as freshly killed bugs are very easy to set (unless they've been killed with the dreadful Ethyl Acetate), but I find relaxed ones very difficult.

Maybe one day I'll crack this, in the meantime I guess I'll just blunder on wrecking more specimens than I set successfully. It's just really annoying when you wreck a bug that cost $500 whilst trying to set it.

Bob