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Post by thanos on Dec 30, 2011 10:11:43 GMT -8
Dave is right. It is : Lycaena dispar dispar Haworth,1803 ,-Type locality : Cambridgeshire,England.
The describer of batava is Oberthur.
Thanos
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 10:11:44 GMT -8
Just remembered,I bought some stuff from a guy at Newark, good stuff at very reasonable prices, his stall was next to this guys, when I commented on how good his materiall was and how cheap his prices were he said at the top of his voice I get sick of seeing people getting ripped off by dealers selling stuff at silly prices so I don't charge too much, needless to say even though the comment was heard there was no reply, you just have to make up your own mind, would you pay 60 pounds for a pair of thecla betulae and if that xanthomelas is ex pupae, it looks like its been dragged through a hedge backwards.
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Post by nomihoudai on Dec 30, 2011 10:36:43 GMT -8
Taxonomy 101 Class for our special friend Thanos:
You can say Lycaena dispar (Haworth 1802) to name any Lycaena dispar of ANY provenance
or you can say
Lycaena dispar dispar (Haworth 1802) Lycaena dispar batavus (Oberthur 1923) Lycaena dispar rutilus (Werneburg 1864)
for the respective subspecies from the respective localities if you consider and accept subspecies.
I do not have any business with this guy, the only thing why I write and argue here is that I dislike this recent name calling of people that has been going on in the trading repors and the open forums. Again, this guy has silly opinions on prices but can't be called a cheater.
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Post by thanos on Dec 30, 2011 11:15:16 GMT -8
Claude,yes my dear,this is obvious, but if someone knows that he sells the ssp.batava, then he shouldn't put 'ENGLISH Large Coppers' under the : 'Lycaena dispar (Haworth,1803)', but ONLY 'Large coppers' if he decides to sell as Lycaena dispar species generally and to not mention the subspecies. But I see that he mentions in his desciption 'this SUBSPECIES is captive bred ' ,without mentioning anywhere to which subspecies is refering ..... Anyway,I will not argue on this, I think everyone can understand what happens . Thanos PS: Now,if someone has bred in England batava from Holland,sorry but this is not English dispar. English was only the dispar dispar, which is extinct. Also,I should add that the Dutch batava was introduced in Wood Walton Fen,Cambridgeshire, in 1927,and again in 1969, but this doesn't make it English.
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Post by saturniidave on Dec 30, 2011 12:12:24 GMT -8
Exactly Thanos.
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Post by africaone on Dec 31, 2011 3:01:44 GMT -8
"PS: Now,if someone has bred in England batava from Holland,sorry but this is not English dispar. English was only the dispar dispar, which is extinct. Also,I should add that the Dutch batava was introduced in Wood Walton Fen,Cambridgeshire, in 1927,and again in 1969, but this doesn't make it English. "
many if not all population had been introduced in many countries (i. e. many islands, etc.). The fact that is an artefact doens't mean that the event is different "biologically" ! any old introduction had been first recent introduction ! to qualify it with a "nationality" is purely politic (as politic borders has nothing to do with biological ones ! in this case of dispar the real dabate as noted by everyone is that the saler is not honnest depicting his item !
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Post by saturniidave on Dec 31, 2011 4:06:56 GMT -8
Still no answer from him and, surprise, surprise, no bids!
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Post by thanos on Dec 31, 2011 13:07:22 GMT -8
Even if the habitat in Wood Walton Fen has been totally restored for the artificially introduced ssp.batava in England,and even if it will be survive successfully there for hundreds of years, like it does naturally in its Dutch habitats, it will not be ever the same exactly (genetically,morphologically,biologically) with the extinct and formerly naturally existing ssp.dispar in England.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2011 14:07:34 GMT -8
Woodwalton fen is only a fraction in size to its former glory, I believe part of the stock is reared indoors and the subsequent adults released back onto the fen to artificially keep it from dying out, ssp batavus is used as this ssp closely resembles our own extinct ssp dispar but if not for this artificial intervention it is unlikely that the colony would survive.
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Post by saturniidave on Jan 1, 2012 10:11:28 GMT -8
Dunc, I believe the Wood Walton colony died out a few years back, they decided it was too expensive to keep captive breeding and releasing them every year so stopped restocking it and within a year they were all gone. A wild caught batavus from Woodwalton that had bred naturally would just possibly qualify as British, but only if it had bred there itself naturally. it still would not be an 'English' Large Copper though, that will only ever be dispar nominate. I have specimens of ssp rutilus from the old Irish colony that thrived on its own for many years in the 1930s, these I would class as 'British' but they are rutilus so not the 'English Large Copper'. I am sorry to say that, in my opinion, this guy is deliberately setting out to deceive people into thinking these are genuine dispar dispar. Just as an aside I have heard in the wind that the latest DNA results suggest that dispar and batavus are identical genetically.
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Post by thanos on Jan 1, 2012 10:37:41 GMT -8
Here,I'd like to say that rutilus is bivoltine and generally of smaller average size than batavus and dispar. Batavus is univoltine. Differences in parameters like voltinism and size provide a good basis for subspecific differentiation. It is fact that dispar and batava are quite similar morphologically,and are of about the same big size. Now,about DNA studies on these I don't know. If it is proven that they are identical genetically,then are the same ssp. But until now,as far as I know,they are considered as different by most.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2012 12:29:05 GMT -8
Having read the wording of the listing carefully there is no chance of these being genuine dispar dispar, the lack of interest says it all. I had the pleasure a couple of years ago of breeding out 5 pairs of dispar batavus, lovely colours,the livestock is usually available every year on the ELG lists at very reasonable prices. Were these genuine English dispar the bidding would be going through the roof now.
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Post by saturniidave on Jan 2, 2012 9:29:21 GMT -8
Thanos, batavus can be bivoltine, it always is in captivity. By the way, I finally got an answer but it came after one blaming his 17 year old son who apparently did the post for him. Here it is:
How do we define English? How long does a sub-species need to exisit in England to be English? How long before an Anglo-Saxon becomes "English" ? It is perhaps a pedantic question. Each will have his own definition. This auction is for the sub-species batavus(Oberthür, 1923) ex woodwalton Fen England, a sub-species introduced to Woodwalton several generations ago from Holland (like Ango-Saxons?). It is of course impossible to offer captive bred stock in 2011 of an extinct species, although who knows if a small colony exisited and interbred with the batavus at Woodwalton? Conjecture but possible. My apology to all who may have miss-understood the term "English". The sub-species offered bred in England for several generations is batavus.
I would define something English as something native to England, batavus is not, the Anglo-Saxon analogy does not work here as it is many hundreds of generations old. As to the possible existence of a small colony of dispar nom.? Is he serious??
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2012 1:33:49 GMT -8
"although who knows if a small colony exisited and interbred with the batavus at Woodwalton"
Yep maybe parnassius apollo will be discovered in Scotland, maybe birdwings live in the woods at the bottom of my garden, maybe the clangers live on the moon and eat cheese. £8.50 for the pair, a bit lower than the buy it now price of £80, like I said, more for the money than the love.
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