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Post by lucanidae25 on Oct 2, 2011 20:12:49 GMT -8
shuey
Why do we want eveything easier with GPS? (go straight to the spot) What's wrong with good old putting in the hard work and determination to climb every hill tips you can find. If you have the determinations you can find anything with out the GPS data. You will find different sp at different hill tops any way.
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Post by jshuey on Oct 3, 2011 5:39:13 GMT -8
shuey Why do we want eveything easier with GPS? (go straight to the spot) What's wrong with good old putting in the hard work and determination to climb every hill tips you can find. If you have the determinations you can find anything with out the GPS data. You will find different sp at different hill tops any way. On so many levels I think we are interested in very different things. First, I am not a person who believes that insect collecting is a competitive sport . Your “net worth” as a collector is not measured by the bugs that you have (and that others do not have). What is wrong with sharing knowledge with other collectors who are interested? All these thing lead me to believe that you love to have bugs that other people don’t have – and that is very different than me. Ask where to get certain species of bug, and I will tell you. Second, I am an ecologist and conservation biologist. Insects are seldom targeted for habitat conservation programs, largely because we are ignorant of what their needs are. Part of the problem is the quality of data on collected specimens. The typical insect collected 100 years ago has minimal data: Country, state, local jurisdiction and date. Compare that with the typical plant collected during the same era – which typically includes additional information about precise location (in the US, township and range) as well as a description of the topographic setting it was collected from (slope and aspect) and a description of habitat (such as forest, bog, seep, …). Re-finding those old insect populations is virtually impossible. But many of the old rare plant sites have been re-discovered, and many cases that has resulted in the habitat being conserved. I’ll give you an example from a pair of insects that just came into my possession last week. For years, I have searched for a very rare species of Hesperiidae in Chiapas Mexico. Euphyes chamuli – known from just a handful of specimens – the only ones I’ve ever seen are the types. To guide my search, all I had was the type locality (Chamula, Chiapas, Mexico) and the knowledge that is probably feeds on a Carex. Sadly – the type locality supports a variety of habitat types, from wetland, to arroyo, to open pine forest – all of which support many species of Carex. So, despite my searches – I’ve always come away without the bug. Any hint would have allowed me to focus my efforts a bit better and perhaps find the insect. So last week, though a trade, I acquired a pair of Guatemalan specimens (undetermined in a bunch of little brown skippers) collected in 1966 - three years before the species was even described! Again, the locality was just a town in the highlands of Guatemala, and a Google earth look at that place indicates that it has exactly the same habitats present at Chamula. I still have no clue about the habitat for this species. So, in 1966 – GPS was not an option. But 50 years from now, I do not want people to look at bugs I collected and lament that I was a lazy bastard who just could not include enough information on his data labels to allow us find his collection sites. I want people to know where my bugs came from. In 50 or 100 years, that information may be very valuable. John
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Post by starlightcriminal on Oct 3, 2011 9:49:23 GMT -8
We are mostly debating the extent to which someone should document, which shows that however you chose to do it, documentation is paramount.
Advantage to GPS is that it puts you exactly right in the region (mind you depends on what kind of GPS you are using, but certainly within a mile or so these days at worst), regardless of what has happened there. Pennswood mentions that it could all just be blown away by some amazing solar flare (at which point I think GPS would be the least of our worries anyway) but forests can be chopped down, roads can wash out, areas can dry up or flood, all kinds of things can muddle or completely obscure localities when trying to visit years after the fact. We really don't have to debate permanence, that is an existential question.
In my view, you get the GPS to make sure you are in the right spot and then you provide the other data (date, time, habitat, affiliated species, etc. etc.) to make sure the spot that it was originally collected at is still representative of the habitat which you are seeking. Without both, there is a good chance you won't be able to find exactly what you intended to. Good chance of not finding it even with both, so why not arm yourself with GPS too? That's like saying, "well I have a library in my city, who needs the internet?" They don't do the same things, they overlap yes, but each has advantages that the other can't provide and the sum is way greater than the parts.
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 3, 2011 10:20:59 GMT -8
Yes. And biotope data is missing in 99% of case... and it is even more important...
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Post by jshuey on Oct 3, 2011 12:06:29 GMT -8
I think these last two posts sum it up – you will never find a reason to not include all the data you possibly can on each specimen. It may be a pain in the butt, but it is worth it. Long after you are dead – people will thank you for having good data on your bugs. Keep in mind that we live in a changing world, and things that are common today may not be common tomorrow. Using a GPS or even Google Earth you can get good coordinates for your collecting location. Using your eyes, you can describe the biotope. And using a word processor, it is easy to print good data labels using a laser printer and acid free paper. And they can be reasonably small but still easy to read. (Personally I’m not too keen recording the time of day and temperature – but I’m probably being short sighted)Towards that end – I always run about 6 lines of data now days. Here is an example from above. Using Arial Narrow 5 pt font and adjusting the space between lines, I can print about 300 labels per page not a huge imposition to ensure that the bugs will remain valuable for researchers of the future. Here is the end product ( albeit - a fuzzy approximation of the original print of labels) Attachments:
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Post by zdenol123 on Oct 3, 2011 13:57:05 GMT -8
Fully agree with you John ! Good job ! This is an entomology ! This is what I was talking about Winged.
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Post by lucanidae25 on Oct 3, 2011 16:09:40 GMT -8
I think you all completely missed my point, my point is my friend should never forced me to do anything that I clearly didn't wana do. That itself it's wrong in so many levels and that's why we're not friends any more. I clearly have my reasons why I didn't wana do it, beside it's right or worng. We are all free to have our own point of view, why should he forced his point of view on me because that's his believes?
John
I don't think you know me at all, I'm the least competitive person you'll even find, I would rather come last in anything, I'm just happy to do my own thing with out anyone farcing their point of view on me. I think it's important to have a different point of view on everything in life. Imagine if we're all have the same point of view on everything, how boring would this world be? Who knows what's guna happened in 100 years??? I don't even know what will happen tomorrow???
The question is not we're all have different point of views but how do you live together with different point of views???
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Post by nomihoudai on Oct 3, 2011 22:43:44 GMT -8
Did you get bullied in school by a GPS-device or why did it hurt your feelings ?
>I think it's important to have a different point of view on everything in life.
You have another opinion just for the sake of having another opinion ? Seriously ? ...
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Post by lucanidae25 on Oct 3, 2011 23:39:01 GMT -8
I'm just glad it's still my choice at the end of the day.
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Post by jshuey on Oct 4, 2011 5:05:18 GMT -8
So if you go back to your original question – How important is it to have GPS data? – I think you can see that almost everyone but you thinks that it is an important piece of information.
So, why bother to ask if you don’t want to hear the answer?
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Post by prillbug2 on Oct 4, 2011 5:19:36 GMT -8
Like I said, if you don't want to use GPS, then get a geological map. It doesn't give you exact locality, but it does give you a good generalization, and only you have to remember where you collected all these insects and when. Actually, your opinion means nothing to me. I have a friend who studies ants, and he takes GPS readings every couple meters when he's doing research because he wants to get a grid-like reading of where all the ant movement is located in that area. From that, he can piece together which species are moving, where they nest, and other intimate details. When we were down in Belize, the amount of data that he brought back was astounding. Thousands of readings, and the grid he pieced together shows an amazing amount of data. The way I look at it, is that you are the one who is being lazy, maybe even arm-chair in your scientific endeavors. Jeff Prill
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Post by papilio28570 on Oct 4, 2011 19:38:29 GMT -8
I have mixed feelings on this matter. I realize the importance of good data, but I also realize that not all collectors are naturalists, they are simply collectors and will rape a localized population of a rare species if given the chance.
I think accurate data, down to GPS local, should be controlled and accessible to true professionals in the field of research.
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Post by Chris Grinter on Oct 4, 2011 21:58:01 GMT -8
I think accurate data, down to GPS local, should be controlled and accessible to true professionals in the field of research. I think that's unrealistic and counterproductive. I can understand the apprehension in giving away the exact coordinates of a population, especially if the group is actually endangered. In very special cases I think not releasing the exact spot can be a good thing. But if the population is so endangered that you don't want to reveal its location you really shouldn't be collecting it in the first place. And making this a rule for all of your data? Who controls it? Who is a "true professional" and who decides that? Lots of great research is done by amateurs... And nothing is stopping a professional from breaking the rules. Science should be repeatable, democratic, open source, free to the public and as transparent as possible. Jealously guarding your data is not scientific nor even friendly (and collecting animals is scientific whether you like it or not).
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Post by starlightcriminal on Oct 5, 2011 6:08:15 GMT -8
I think accurate data, down to GPS local, should be controlled and accessible to true professionals in the field of research. Science should be repeatable, democratic, open source, free to the public and as transparent as possible. Jealously guarding your data is not scientific nor even friendly (and collecting animals is scientific whether you like it or not). Exactly.
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Post by pennswoods on Oct 15, 2011 4:26:53 GMT -8
a little off topic, a little on topic: dvice.com/archives/2011/10/speedy-neutrino.phpeven the hundred-pound heads at CERN who are getting paid big money from governments (read: taxes on me) to figure out big things such as relativity,,,, use GPS to time their experiments but don't take into account RELATIVITY, cause an uproar and many late-night parties to celebrate how great they are, then get shown their a$$ by others using relativity to explain (in second-grade terms no less...) why relativity proves they're wrong. GPS!!!!
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